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Post by Colin Wee on Mar 27, 2006 8:06:41 GMT 8
I've been giving serious thought about the higher level of the spear hand in "P" as compared to "H" which is performed at the kiai point. Would it be a possibility that the performer of the kata is targeting his/her spear hand for that space of cartilidge between the shoulder, and arm to dislocate the opponent's left arm? SURE.. you'd need speed, power, accuracy, and awesome timing to achieve this.. Is it even possible? I know that when I've had to cut up a whole chicken, it was always quite easy to pop a joint when I applied the proper pressure in the right place. It is not conceivable to me that the spear hand can target anywhere other than an eye socket or the neck. Of course I don't condition my hand to do that sort of thing, nor have I known anyone with that level of conditioning to do that. So I won't even contemplate it. However, once you get there, let us know! Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Mar 27, 2006 10:52:54 GMT 8
[So I won't even contemplate it. However, once you get there, let us know! Ha ha haha... I wince when I condition the knuckles of my fist. I can't picture myself conditioning my spear hand very soon. I'm not up to working on slamming my spear hand into sand, gravel, rocks, and such. I've read that this type of conditioning will also misform your fingers.. shudder. It was not uncommon, and still is not today, to see Karateka on the island of Okinawa spending countless hours each day striking the rope wrapped makiwara or striking pad with spear hand, knife edge or ridge hand strikes and even strikes that utilize the thumbs and the bare feet and toes. In older days, students and instructors alike trained using bare hand grips to develop vice-like techniques to crush dried stalks of bamboo and rip the bark off trees with powerful clawing techniques. Some Te proponents were known for their ability to employ open hand strikes and grabs to literally tear the dried beef or pork chunks out of a carcass that hd been salted or cured in the sun.
In realistic fighting terms, this literally meant being capable of ripping, tearing or lacerating an opponent's vital target areas with every strike. Some of the even stauncher Karateka took their conditioning training a few steps further. They would condition each individual finger to withstand great amounts of force by striking into buckets of rice, then progressing on to small, medium, and then course stones.
The early Karateka was fully aware that the human anatomy, though being fragile, was just as capable of being conditioned to withstand great amounts of punishment, induced through constant training. This logically meant keeping the prime weapons of their art - their hands and feet - in top condition and capable of inflicting maximum damage without causing injury too themselves.
To test many of the fragile appearing open hand techniques, it was not uncommon to break sections of board, roofing tiles and even stones with knife edge strikes, finger strikes or even backhand slaps. This meant that a powerfully executed finger strikes or open hand strike could conceivably crack a skull, break almost any bone or penetrate an eye socket and cause severe brain damage.matsumurashorinryu.tripod.com/id5.htmlCrack the skull!!!!!! How much force is needed to crack a living skull? " Research indicates that if the head of a human makes contact with a solid object, at a speed over 2 ½ mph, the force generated is sufficient to crack the human skull open. " www.nsc.org/mem/educ/slips.htmNow.. my curiousity arose, and I wondered "What is the average speed of a karate technique?" and lo, and behold I found this pdf from the net: www.pims.math.ca/pi/issue6/page09-11.pdfWhich shows some mathematical study on karate techniques. They found that a basic front forward punch had a speed of 5.7 to 9.8 m/second. a downward knife hand strike had a speed of 10 to 14 m/second AARGH.. how does one translate miles per second into miles per hour??? I'm not a mathematician.. I'm just a mom. HELP!
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Post by Colin Wee on Mar 27, 2006 15:14:15 GMT 8
If it travels at 5 miles per second, it will conceivably travel much faster per hour. 60 seconds per minute, 60 minutes to an hour. So multiply 5x60x60 to get mph.
I think the equation is F=ma. The trick is to figure out what mass do you have behind the strike.
Colin
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Post by Colin Wee on Mar 27, 2006 17:08:12 GMT 8
This is an excellent example of an area of the arts which may not be so accessible to modern day practitioners. Thus reinforces my belief that we have to constantly strive to make the system accessible to us at a personal level. This comes after looking at the style long and hard - what it was before and how does it benefit us now. :-) You're doing a good job Mir. Colin
ps. When you can break bricks with your fingers, let me know.
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Post by supergroup7 on Mar 27, 2006 21:06:19 GMT 8
Yes Colin.. I was aware that Force = Mass times acceleration, but thank you for reminding me of that fact.
Using that idea, usually we aren't looking just at the speed of a punch when we are talking about a technique to the head.
Just for the sake of fun though.. and looking at the research that was done:
Let's say that a top notch karate punch travels 10 m/s .. I had assumed that it was "miles per second" but after figuring out the speed in miles per hour it went up to 3600 mph. That didn't seem possible. So what if the study was done in metres per second. This would translate to a punch travelling at 2.16 mph. ( My son helped me with all of the math part.) This is just under the speed needed to crack a skull.
Isn't it amazing that a knife hand strike can travel almost twice the speed of a punch?
Wouldn't the mass behind the strike really rely on body mechanics? I.E. your stance, hip rotation, muscle expansion/contraction.. etc. In my opinion.. that would be variable in each attempt to strike.
Back to this kata, and the higher target of the first kiai point shown by some arts.
I've learned that the shoulder joint is the weakest joint in the human body because the arm bone does not actually nest into the shoulder socket. It's too big to get in there, and it has needs more rotation ability than any other joint. Muscles, ligaments, and cartiledge have to hold the shoulder in place. The shoulder is most prone to injury by impact, and is easilly dislocated in almost any direction. ( The upwards kick in Pyung Ahn Sa Dan / Heian Yondan, Pinan sono yon comes to mind.)
Looking at the fact that the Okinawans historically, and traditionally conditioned their open hand strikes, also looking at the fact that joint attacks were taught by the Okinawan Masters. I feel that it is a strong possibility that the shoulder strike with a spear hand was encouraged at one time, and perhaps even was part of this kata.
Would I attempt such a strike? Not on my life.. I'm a weekend warrior, and I accept my limitations. If I had to do a spear hand I would choose a softer target.
However, now that I've learned how a knife hand strike are capable of being faster than my punches.. I will endeavor to increase the speed of my knife hands. At this moment my punches seem to have more speed.
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Post by Colin Wee on Apr 7, 2006 13:38:26 GMT 8
I don't think you'd be getting the same mass behind the knife hand as you would a punch. The knife hand is *typically* done in a swinging fashion whereas the punch is driven typically with the support of the upper body. If you talk about shotokan strikes, the punch is driven with the entire lunging body. This weight is far heavier than the knife hand strike.
If you are talking about a spear hand, we have a similar vertical spear hand technique on our third form Dan-gun. This is aimed at the neck, which I would confidently say is a far more attractive target. Perhaps the vertical spearhand also indicates that it should target the eyes.
Whatever the strike, damage to the shoulder joint is far easier to inflict if you hyperextend the joint rather than strike it.
Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Apr 9, 2006 2:22:29 GMT 8
damage to the shoulder joint is far easier to inflict if you hyperextend the joint rather than strike it
To deepen my understanding, if I wanted to hyperextend the joint, I'd want to do a sudden push/pull on the arm in the wrong direction, am I correct?
Elbows, and knees are easy to figure out which way to go, the shoulder is different. It can twist, and turn in alot of directions.. I've been asking myself which way would I send the shoulder to hyperextend it?
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Post by Colin Wee on Apr 9, 2006 20:53:35 GMT 8
You hold the arm still and make the shoulder go forward, and fast.
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Post by supergroup7 on Apr 11, 2006 2:41:04 GMT 8
You hold the arm still and make the shoulder go forward, and fast
Thank you, Colin.
Therefore, one would need to be situated to the opponents back to achieve hyperextension of the shoulder joint. Am I correct?
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Post by Colin Wee on Apr 11, 2006 8:49:00 GMT 8
You hold the arm still and make the shoulder go forward, and fastTherefore, one would need to be situated to the opponents back to achieve hyperextension of the shoulder joint. Am I correct? To do this you should be situated at his side. All your circular or scooping blocks or blocks going across would work nicely. Otherwise you should have the opponent bent over in front of you. Downward elbows palm strikes would work well. Another shoulder attack can be seen in Basai before the first side kick. You double block a strike, pull it into your hip, and knee comes up right into the armpit. Works nicely for both sides, if not to dislocate the shoulder then to give it a nice little stretch. Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on May 1, 2006 21:19:15 GMT 8
Another shoulder attack can be seen in Basai before the first side kick. You double block a strike, pull it into your hip, and knee comes up right into the armpit. Works nicely for both sides, if not to dislocate the shoulder then to give it a nice little stretch.
Oh my gosh.. YES! I can see that happening! Both the shoulder, and the knee of the opponent out of commision with one movement. Wonderful. Thank you for that wake up call!
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Post by Colin Wee on May 1, 2006 21:50:41 GMT 8
Nasty isn't it?
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Post by supergroup7 on May 3, 2007 3:34:53 GMT 8
I've been looking at the opening three movements of this kata lately... on my own. Sure... I could speed up my study a little and go see all of the various explanations available, but I have accepted the challenge of working it out, and puzzling.
I noticed that the opening movement which goes into a backstance pulls one away from the oncoming attack from an opponent standing to the left of you making it fall short of it's goal as you respond with a upper level inside block with the left arm. ( I'm using the Shotokan Heian Nidan version of this kata.)
Placing my body back that 6 inches through sinking in my stance made it nigh impossible to perform the next technique as described by traditional Shotokan bunkai explanation. My opponent would throw the second punch maintaining his position, and my right arm did NOT stretch out far enough to strike the oncoming elbow, my shoulder was not placed close enough to trap the fist with the left hand. My body naturally adjusted on their own and switched the position of my blocking hands. My right arm came closer to me, and my left arm went farther up on the opponent's arm striking the pressure point above to his wrist deflecting the punch.
Over and over again, I tried to force the traditional explanation of breaking my opponent's elbow to happen. I asked my attacker to come in closer on the second punch, but my backstance position made that quite awkward for him. I thought that perhaps it was because my opponent was taller than me, and had a longer reach. I tried to do the bunkai with a smaller young teenager. I still had the same issues.
I looked around at the other more experienced karate ka in the room, and I noticed that their bodies were struggling with the bunkai. The movments looked awkward as they attempted to perform it. Even IF they managed to get that right arm to attack to the right place, there didn't seem to be enough "oomph" to the movement to create the right speed, and power to dislocate, hyperextend, or break that oncoming arm.
Also.. I have a good knowledge of how fast an oncoming full contact punch is, and how quickly it is withdrawn.. I'm really doubting that we are breaking a punching arm with this technique. I believe that the movement COULD be used as an arm break if someone was grasping your shirt.
I visualized my attacker coming from the front instead of from the left. Now, things made a little more sense.. sort of... I don't know why I would look left if my opponent was in front of me, but my right hand coming up with a head block position at the same time that my left is blocking my head makes alot more sense. I had to reposition the idea of what I was trying to achieve in my head. It has more of an unbalance the opponent and send them flying concept if I put it together.
I really do not have answers yet... only questions, queries, and guesses.. but I know that I am not satisfied with what I have in my head for this movement. Which is sad really, because Heian Nidan is my favorite kata.
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Post by Colin Wee on May 7, 2007 11:29:28 GMT 8
I've been giving serious thought about the higher level of the spear hand in "P" as compared to "H" which is performed at the kiai point. Would it be a possibility that the performer of the kata is targeting his/her spear hand for that space of cartilidge between the shoulder, and arm to dislocate the opponent's left arm? SURE.. you'd need speed, power, accuracy, and awesome timing to achieve this.. Is it even possible? I know that when I've had to cut up a whole chicken, it was always quite easy to pop a joint when I applied the proper pressure in the right place. Actually I wouldn't put so much into the differences between Pyung An Yi Dan and the Heian version. I'm sure the variances have just come about through word of mouth degradation. Colin
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Post by Colin Wee on May 7, 2007 11:43:11 GMT 8
I noticed that the opening movement which goes into a backstance pulls one away from the oncoming attack from an opponent standing to the left of you making it fall short of it's goal as you respond with a upper level inside block with the left arm. ( I'm using the Shotokan Heian Nidan version of this kata.) I don't know if it will make it fall short, but it also allows you to move slightly out of the way - given that the act of moving your foot into back balance shifts your head slightly to the left. I think of this technique as a variant of an Ude Garami - a foldover lock which requires you to fold over your left arm over his elbow, establish a figure four grip and then force his hand to his face and over his shoulder. In this 'windmill' block, the Ude Garami can be applied similarly but with your left hand on his right elbow and your right hand gripping the back of his right hand. If you want to break an elbow as the traditional bunkai would require, then you would have to shift into forebalance, stablilise the opponent's hand and strike perpendicularly with a forearm to the elbow joint with 'shotokan' power. This type of striking as appears in the form will not result in the power requireed to break anyone's elbow. If you are obsessed about breaking the elbow, this is what you need to do whilst in back stance - block the arm, and then strike the guy using a reverse punch. Once done he would double forward. You then perform a manji uke pulling his extended arm behind him whilst holding on to his head. Then all you do is hold on to the offending limb and do a forearm strike to it - in forebalance.
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