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Post by supergroup7 on Mar 1, 2006 22:10:37 GMT 8
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Post by supergroup7 on Mar 3, 2006 6:27:51 GMT 8
NOW... here is an interesting video for your enjoyment. It was created between 1960-1962, and performed by the present Masters of Shotokan. I present to you the "classic" Heian Shodan/ Pyung Ahn Cho Dan. www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6PWyd2iOZsPoints of interest: The Master is moving with something right inbetween direct stepping and C stepping. His moving foot appears to leave contact with the floor throughout the movement. He moves so quickly that it is difficult for me to see what is the exact movement. He definately is using the "Gate turning method" of turning over the pulling into the support foot turning method. This is similar to the Tang Soo Do artist's type of turning. In movement #4, the master pulls back his lead foot, but leaves his body still. In other words there is no swaying up, or back of the torso. His hand does a downward hammerfist, but it goes directly from the downblock position.. which makes it almost have an "inside block" with a downwards twist at the end appearance. During the three rising blocks ascending (movement # 7,8,9) Notice that the master has squared hips.. not angled. This is more like the Tang Soo Do artists. The ending 4 back stance/ knife hands are exactly like the modern Shotokan martial artist's position, and target.
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Post by Colin Wee on Mar 3, 2006 21:02:50 GMT 8
This is very similar to the way we do our Chang Hon patterns. As you say, it is not really a 'C' stepping (first time I heard of this is from you), and it is not really a straight step. The way our feet move is dictated by the way we generate force to go forward. The dynamics come from a sprinter's start, with front knee moving forward, centre of gravity going towards front knee in order for the front leg to lunge you forward. The hips are aligned forward just like the sprinter's hips, and the back foot 'tends toward' the front support foot. We're not altogether requiring a crescent shape movement or a 'C' movement, but if you're contracting the inner thigh muscles to drag the back foot along, the feet will come together before being sent apart again.
I cannot say that I was taught to have torso flexibility by a taekwondo teacher - maintaining a rigid and upright posture. I was taught to have a small amount of flexibility and forward lean by a shotokan 'American Karate' instructor. This instructor of mine - must weight close to 200 lbs, but he was faster (as a mid 40/ early 50 year old) than I ever was in my early 20s!
Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Mar 8, 2006 2:42:24 GMT 8
O.K.... Here's a clincher for me. I was taught while ago to use Reverse hip rotation on the "downblocks" from the very first movement onwards in my kata.
YET... in every one of these videos : Tang Soo Do, Shotokan (modern), Shotokan (past), Kyokushin.. I see Direct hip rotation.
I consulted with several black belts in my area and they all agree that direct hip rotation is used in this kata, not reverse hip rotation.
IF we are using Direct hip rotation throughout the whole kata.. than I would find it hard to consider that technique as a downblock, but more as a hammerfist using the weight of the body turning for power rather than relying on the quick rotation of the hips.
BUT does not the power of the 4 knife hand techniques done in backstance at the end of the kata almost rely on the twist of the hips.. otherwise you are just relying totally on your arm's strength to pull off the attack/block? There isn't much turning happening on movement #19, or movement #21. Are you supposed to try to rely on hip vibration to provide power in those moments?
Any comments? thoughts?
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Post by supergroup7 on May 1, 2006 21:12:52 GMT 8
does not the power of the 4 knife hand techniques done in backstance at the end of the kata almost rely on the twist of the hips.. otherwise you are just relying totally on your arm's strength to pull off the attack/block?
I got my own answer... by fluke! It's the rotation that provides the power. You spin 270 degrees from the kiai position to the first knife hand strike. You use the power of the rotation to strike with the block.. like a spinning top. Movement #19 has a forewards movement to provide the power.
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Post by supergroup7 on Jun 1, 2006 7:09:07 GMT 8
"in reality you are turning taking your attacker with you... turning counter clockwise and finnishing him off with the final movement of the turn.
I have tried in the past to apply this with a partner. I found that I didn't have the strength to pull my attacker with me as I pulled my right leg back. I used as much hip as I could but since my balance was forwards after the right armed "Punch" (Movement #2) It was not possible to pull me, and my opponent with me as I turned 180 degrees to face the other direction, especially since my opponent was unbalanced away from me from my previous movements.
Has anyone tried this application, and made it stick? How much do you have to figit with the stance/technique to get it to happen? "
I did it! I successfully made this bunkai work. The key was to be in fighting stance instead of traditional stance.
I had my opponent standing up and advancing as if to send a right front kick at me. I turned to the left, and "downblocked" with my left arm, and grabbed the material on the inside thigh of the kicking leg with my left hand. I stepped forward and shot my right hand onto the opponent's left shoulder (it felt like a punch), and quickly turned ( just like the kata) into the opposite direction. The opponent went flying. The main idea was that I had to have my balance centered to be able to apply this idea, instead of forwards like in the front stance.
I surprised the various opponents with how quickly, and easilly they went from attacking to flying. I had to continue holding them and stop their momentum so that they wouldn't hurt themselves. Cool!
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Post by supergroup7 on Nov 8, 2007 22:42:00 GMT 8
I returned to this thread, and updated all of the links on my postings as many of them had become dead ends.
I'd like to add that I've noticed something interesting as I've been training solely in Kyokushin karate. I've been focusing only on direct stepping, and all C stepping has been placed on the back burner.
One thing that I've noticed is an improvement in my movement in fighting stance. My feet are quicker at switching positions, and moving forwards. I can keep my balance more central, and I have more speed at shifting to the sides. There is less "wasted" energy. I call it wasted, which I do not think is a good word for it, but I cannot think of a better word. I found that pulling both feet into central position during sparring is a very vulnerable place to be... one HAS to accompany that position with something quick, and effective, and distracting. Similar to what we do in Bassai Dai.
I realized something important. We very rarely end up doing C stepping movement in fighting stance when we are sparring. Our movements are almost all straight to our intended placement.
So why emphasize this C stepping in Shotokan training. I've noticed that I use C stepping movement in fighting stance when I'm looking to throw my opponent and I bring my leg in, and around their legs. ( in Goshin Jutsu) But I believe that the main idea of C stepping is the resistance training to the inner thigh muscles that the Shotokan karate students removed in that style by not using the Sanchin stance which is predominately practiced by Okinawan Karate ka. The Sanchin kata, and stance is one of the very first things taught in Okinawan based arts similar to Goju Ryu.
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Post by Colin Wee on Dec 1, 2007 20:18:53 GMT 8
Of course. C stepping is only for lunging type attacks when you are trying to impart maximum lunging force. There is no reason to use C stepping when you're in a fighting stance.
Fighting stance allows your legs to be closer in line with your opponent. In a forward stance, not only are your legs further away, they are spaced wider. To get the power of the legs going you need to bring them together in order for them to effectively spread apart in the end.
Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Dec 8, 2007 1:58:57 GMT 8
"There is no reason to use C stepping when you're in a fighting stance."Ah.. so then.. here is my thoughts concerning the development of kata that we have seen throughout history.. Please correct me if I'm going way off base here: From what I have seen the older Okinawan versions of the kata tend to contain shorter, higher stances, and direct stepping which would translate most to a self defense/fighting moment. The Shotokan similar arts, (other than Kyokushin), lengthened the stance, and therefore needed to include C stepping in order to be able to surge forwards in such an extended position. The C stepping came into existance as the body mechanics demanded it for faster movement in a longer stance. I can almost bet that some of the Shotokan students who were studying under Sensei Gichin Funakoshi when he first brought Okinawan karate to Japan were also trained in various other Martial arts such as Kendo, Sumo wrestling, and Judo. I do know that Sensei Gichin Funakoshi was VERY familiar with the founder of Judo exchanging ideas, and training. I wonder.. how much of the concepts of these other arts might have infiltrated Shotokan. Perhaps the deeper lengthy linear Shotokan style did not originate with the Okinawan Masters of Matsumura Sensei, and Itosu Sensei, but developed in the hands of Sensei Gichin Funakoshi. It was obvious that Sensei Gichin did not mind changing the Okinawan terms to Japanese ones. It was also obvious that he didn't mind changing the kanji for "karate" from "chinese hand" to "empty hand" incurring the wrath of MANY of the other Sensei. Sensei Gichin also taught anyone who wanted to learn karate regardless to their social stature, or race. He was just as comfortable teaching princes in their palace as he was teaching the school chef. He even included teaching, and giving demonstrations to the Americans who were occupying Japan after the war. This mental philosophy is so far beyond many of the Sensei who would only take a select few students, and refused to teach anyone not of their race. Sensei Funakoshi admits in his biography that his students did not resemble the original Okinawan karate at all when he brought them there to study. According to Wikipedia ( not that one can believe everything that they read on the internet) " General Hong Hi Choi later went to Japan and began studying Shōtōkan-ryū karate under a Korean named Kim Hyun Soo. After two years of training he was presented with the rank of 1st dan black belt in that school. Choi then went to Tokyo University, visiting the Shōtōkan dojo and possibly trained under Gichin Funakoshi, Shōtōkan-ryū's founder. He gained his 2nd dan and started teaching, becoming an instructor at the Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA) in Tokyo. Conscripted into the Japanese army in 1943, Choi was posted to Pyongyang, where he became involved in the Korean Independence Movement. This resulted in his imprisonment by the Japanese. Wanting to maintain good physical and mental health during this time, he practised karate—alone at first, then by teaching it to the staff of the prison and the other prisoners." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Hong_HiThis can explain, and reveal why the patterns which are similar between Shotokan, Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo, Kyokushin, and Okinawan karate show such differences. It would depend as to WHEN General Choi studied his Shotokan training as to how the stances, and movements were performed. The same happens with the variety of Martial arts that happened in the Orient. The more recent Arts which might have been influenced by the Shotokan of Sensei Funakoshi, and have included the deeper stances. The question is Why? Why the deeper stance? "In pre-World War II Okinawa, kumite was not part of karate training.[6] Shigeru Egami relates that, in 1940, some karateka were ousted from their dojo because they adopted sparring after having learned it in Tokyo.[7]" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KarateI do know that much evidence has been shown that Sensei Gichin Funakoshi frowned on kumite very much. He was known to express his displeasure about this many times verbally, and even in physical signs such as turning his back to not watch it happening. There is a different reason than effective fighting methods for the long deep stances that Sensei Funakoshi included into the performance of the Okinawan kata. Perhaps the style of Shotokai contains the key to the answers to this question.. Please look at their version of Heian Shodan: www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHz0hPUxeS0If you look at the movements of Sensei Gichin Funakoshi performing Tekki Nidan in 1920.( I would have rather found the same kata as Heian Shodan, but this is the best that I could find.) You will see the same smooth, relaxed movements, and flow.. and yet there is a sharpness at the END of the technique which is gone from the Shotokai performance. www.youtube.com/watch?v=3owT1N6kRhgNow look how Sensei Gichin Funakoshi's son (Sensei Gigo) performs Heian Godan. See the deep longer stances? The smoothness is still there, but the stances have gone to full length of the body almost. (Sensei Gigo died in the year 1945.) www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHBPXdszX-oI would offer the thought that originally the deeper stances were to offer extra health benefits to the movements while maintaining the self defense core movements taught by karate. Again, I turn to the Shotokai karate style for this type of exploration. Shotokai, and Shotokan both were birthed by the same Founder, but you can see a total different direction of development between the two arts almost like two sides of a teeter totter. The goal in training in Shotokai is personal self improvement. Master Egami ( the founder of Shotokai) wrote: "First of all, we must practise Karate like a combat technique and then, with time and experience, we will be able to understand a certain state of soul and will be able to open ourselves to the horizons of jita-ittai ("the union of one with the other") which lay beyond fighting. This is the principle of coexistence which enables us to live together in prosperity."
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Post by Colin Wee on Dec 22, 2007 20:24:02 GMT 8
"There is no reason to use C stepping when you're in a fighting stance."Ah.. so then.. here is my thoughts concerning the development of kata that we have seen throughout history.. Please correct me if I'm going way off base here: Who's to say you're wrong and I'm right? I think you're generalising here. Generalising means what you see most of the time versus what might also work some of the time. If you take Dr Clayton's point, Matsumura understood linear power generation and used it to his advantage. Meaning whatever they did most of the time (fighting and kata) doesn't mean that it precludes them from dropping down and surging forward when attempting to sink that strike into a flagging opponent. traditionaltaekwondo.blogspot.com/2007/12/knee-is-key-part-2.htmlWhatever infiltrated Shotokan, there is a definite stylistic influence or signature. The deep stances are like ITF's 'sine wave' movement. I personally cannot see how a pragmatic fighter would say - always move in this particular way. If shorter stances allow for better movement, then so be it. If longer stances allow for more impact, then so be it. They have their own place when the time comes, don't you think? When I was in the States, we did all our kata with the same breath - a short sharp powerful breath out. If it wasn't for the shout, you'd not notice any difference between the kiai breath out and the normal breath out. What this means is that you're wiped out from even one or two kata performances. Hard style is hard. If Shotokan was meant to create healthy bodies, it is very in line with the techniques and training regiment. That's what I understand too. Gen Choi Hong Hi was also heavily influenced by his objective to have strong or stronger emphasis on kicks. This also influences the evolution of the art, but yes. This is why I call what I do 'Traditional Taekwondo' differentiating it from the modern TKD system that has evolved quite significantly. But yes, you're right about the timing of when he learned it - it's very important. Well, when I want to hit hard, I sink my weight into my legs and then I turn on the propulsion unit and then hit the start button ... The more I do 'traditional' type stuff, the more I agree with my teachers that sparring is only part of the training. Sparring messes you up. Sinking the strikes into the opponent has nothing to do with prancing about. The prancing does teach some good skills, but once you've figured those out, the humble self defence drills are by far more important. You would like what Choki Motobu has to say about Gichin Funakoshi. But I'd have to agree somewhat. Sparring creates a mistaken idea for all but the most serious of martial arts practitioners. I can't comment about the evolution of Shotokai regarding their techniques beyond the fact they disagreed with Funakoshi's approach to training and objectives. But I can say they have modified their techniques and it looks like they wanted speed and fluidity. It's hard to compare the heians with the tekki series. Nice video. But yeah - all done in deep long stances! Are Japanese sensei's always so vague? Or is it because he was trying to quote in English!! :-) But yeah - I agree. We must practice our style like it is for combat. That is one of the reasons why I am happy to depart from the long stances when necessary, and in fact attempt to understand my art by substituting any stance at will -- rather than crystallize the movements for use in deep stances. Good post! Colin [/quote]
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Post by Colin Wee on Dec 22, 2007 20:31:37 GMT 8
"There is no reason to use C stepping when you're in a fighting stance."Ah.. so then.. here is my thoughts concerning the development of kata that we have seen throughout history.. Please correct me if I'm going way off base here: From what I have seen the older Okinawan versions of the kata tend to contain shorter, higher stances, and direct stepping which would translate most to a self defense/fighting moment. The Shotokan similar arts, (other than Kyokushin), lengthened the stance, and therefore needed to include C stepping in order to be able to surge forwards in such an extended position. The C stepping came into existance as the body mechanics demanded it for faster movement in a longer stance. I can almost bet that some of the Shotokan students who were studying under Sensei Gichin Funakoshi when he first brought Okinawan karate to Japan were also trained in various other Martial arts such as Kendo, Sumo wrestling, and Judo. I do know that Sensei Gichin Funakoshi was VERY familiar with the founder of Judo exchanging ideas, and training. I wonder.. how much of the concepts of these other arts might have infiltrated Shotokan. One other thing I need to say. 'C' stepping is not mutually exclusive to both of the stances. In longer stances, the 'C' step is required to pull the back leg closer to the centre of gravity so that a lunging force can be create to drive COG forward. In shorter and more upright stances, the back leg is already close to COG, so if you want to explode forward, this movement can still be created, though the forward lunging power will not be near as powerful as for the longer traditional stance.
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Post by supergroup7 on Dec 23, 2007 23:47:21 GMT 8
Thanks Colin
Your long reply deserves a really thought out response, and I'm a little short for time in the next while due to Christmas. So.. I apologize, but it may take awhile for me to return to this discussion.
However, I'd like to mention:
I said "Perhaps the deeper lengthy linear Shotokan style did not originate with the Okinawan Masters"
I now realize that this sentence might have brought the focus away from the central topic that I was addressing namely the introduction of deep low stances to karate. I should not have added the word "linear" to that sentence. I became aware that my posting might have given the wrong impression when you responded " If you take Dr Clayton's point, Matsumura understood linear power generation and used it to his advantage."
Oops.. oh no.. I wasn't arguing against that concept. I can see what Dr. Clayton is saying in his book "Shotokan Secrets", it makes tons of sense. I'm just looking at how Shotokan/ Shotokai and other arts that stem from the same "zone" have emphasized deep low stances in their style, and I wondered what would have motivated this change.
I've seen LOTS of deep low stances in Chinese Martial arts, in Korean Martial arts, etc. but these deep stances doesn't seem as consistently expressed compared to the arts linked to Sensei Gichin Funakoshi.
I do know that Sensei Funakoshi speaks about how he would walk with a special way of stepping even during the everyday:
"Now, the young folk in my family ask me if I would like a massage, but I refuse, telling them that, old as I am, my muscles are in excellent condition. And that is true, although perhaps strangers, seeing me walking down the street, would not think so, for I still use the sort of gliding walk that we call suriashi, which was the style when I was young. Young people unacquainted with this old-fashioned custom might suppose me weak in the knees, but they would be wrong." Sensei Gichin Funakoshi Karate Do My Way of Life pg 99
Moving in Suri Ashi involves keeping the knees bent ( almost as if in fighting stance) and works the legs muscles more than regular walking. In a way, it is like continually training the leg muscles all day, everyday.
If we look at one of Sensei Funakoshi's 20 precepts: "17. Beginners must master low stance and posture, natural body positions are for the advanced."
We can see that Low stances were considered to build strength, flexibility, balance, etc for the beginner karate student, and I am suggesting that lower stances were also emphasized in Sensei Gichin Funakoshi's karate with the idea that it would promote better health.
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Post by Colin Wee on Dec 24, 2007 19:49:17 GMT 8
I said "Perhaps the deeper lengthy linear Shotokan style did not originate with the Okinawan Masters"I now realize that this sentence might have brought the focus away from the central topic that I was addressing namely the introduction of deep low stances to karate. I should not have added the word "linear" to that sentence. I became aware that my posting might have given the wrong impression when you responded " If you take Dr Clayton's point, Matsumura understood linear power generation and used it to his advantage." Certainly. Many other martial arts have long deep stances. And yes, these are not represented similarly in shotokan as shotokan's deep stances seem to express a narrow range of functionality. Perhaps if Dr Clayton is correct, they have been reduced because they are used as a FIBUA (fighting in build up area) type exercise. However, I don't know if I'd totally agree with the idea that it'll be for the sake of developing health - if so, then the concept would not be a borrowed one. Colin
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