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Post by Will Senn on Feb 14, 2007 4:25:25 GMT 8
I have just "learned" this kata. Well, learned might be to strong a word. I was really just introduced to it after coming from a good ol' Texas Karate background with plenty of Tae Kwon Do mixed in, or is it the other way around? Either way, it's amazing how similar this kata is to Chun Gi and yet how different. The biggest differences appear, on the surface, to be stylistic. When you dig a bit deeper, though, there's quite a bit of difference. The biggest difference outside of style is the inclusion of a 270 degree reverse turn. This is a pretty difficult technique for a beginner to do. I like it that the kata includes the turn rather than an additional blocking technique as is found in Chun Gi. In my view, it is more important to learn to stand and walk than to perform technique. With a solid foundation, the rest will surely follow. Here is a reasonable video of Taikyoku Shodan: www.traditionalkaratecenter.com/Video/Kihon%20Kata%20Ichi%20trimmed.wmvAnd a not terribly good video of Chun Gi: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=521225617732091713&q=chun+gi&hl=enAnyone have a good set of video links? The Taikyoku video isn't half bad, but the Chun Gi one is worth discussing in its own right as an example of poor stance and technique (good lighting though). If this is anyone's in these forums, I apologize in advance. Will
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Post by Colin Wee on Feb 14, 2007 9:23:35 GMT 8
I thought I had seen a lot of bad Chungi videos - this one takes the cake though.
Taikyoku Shodan looks similar to Heian Shodan and Chungi. The guy who is performing it on the video doesn't seem to be generating a lot of linear momentum, but at least shows how he could generate some power - whereas the guy doing Chungi doesn't.
"More important to stand and walk" .. certainly. However Chungi (and the other two basic forms) teaches one way to generate power and to kill the opponent - plough straight into them. This is an infantryman's form - don't think about too much strategy, see something coming your way - you break it, then you knock the opponent out.
Heian Shodan includes other things - a pull back of the front leg and hammerfist could be a takedown (either wrist or neck), and your 270 degree turn could be a wholebody takedown too. In fact I teach the last remaining two step backs in Chungi as an Osoto gari - reaping throw to the outer leg.
Simple forms should contain really simple things.
Colin
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Post by Will Senn on Feb 14, 2007 11:34:05 GMT 8
The guy who showed me the steps discussed the possibility of a sweep with the 270 - I can certainly see it.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not criticizing Chungi. It is a fine beginner form. I like Chungi - now I like Taikyoku Shodan, too. The bad video not withstanding...
Will
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Post by Colin Wee on Feb 14, 2007 22:24:47 GMT 8
Not at all. Sorry if I came across too strongly.
From what I understand, Taikyoku patterns were not really considered part of shotokan by the JKA. Maybe it's got influences from older soft-style/chinese kung fu patterns? It'll be interesting to explore further.
Colin
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Post by Will Senn on Feb 16, 2007 0:49:30 GMT 8
Undoubtedly, I'll get some background when I go back to class on Saturday, and let you know what the Renbudo take on it is...
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mat
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Posts: 45
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Post by mat on Feb 16, 2007 21:58:10 GMT 8
Who hands out black belts? The first one was nice. Looks a lot like heian shodan. As for video links errrrr.. I have quite a few. Which art are you looking for?
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Post by Will Senn on Feb 17, 2007 4:00:07 GMT 8
Who? Apparently, anyone who can walk semi-straight... As for which art, I'm not picky - preferably something akin to karate, tae kwon do hmm, that's pretty vague - how about a hard art, that oughta help narrow it down. Will
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Post by supergroup7 on Mar 16, 2007 21:22:42 GMT 8
Yes.. I've heard about the sweep idea of that movement. Also, I have been shown that the 270 turn is an anticipatory attacking block to the attacker's inner thigh. You use the spinning rotation to create power and then come IN on the opponent with the strike. You end up extremely close to them which allows for a throw, or grappling movement.
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Post by Guro Cory on Mar 17, 2007 2:41:07 GMT 8
Takiaku shodan (or as we call it "basic kata #1")
I enjoy working Bunkai from this form-kata...
Here's some good ideas: From movement number one..have an UKI grab or place hand on your left shoulder.. MOVEMENT ONE is in KATA is called for a LOW BLOCK, however look at that movement as a joint lock.. place your "right hand" over his grabbing hand take your left hand over his hand grabbing your shoulder and turn into a front stance dropping your left arm over top causing a small joint manipulation lock bringing the UKI to his knees..
Next movement is to step into a front stance middle punch. (seiken) gyaku tsuki..this will cause the uki to fall forward as you strike towards his temple area.. K.O.
Next movement is a turning movement.. Grab UKI head and twist as you turn 180 degrees breaking neck finishing first 4 movements of KATA.
(THIS IS JUST ONE OF MANY INTERREPATIONS of this kata)
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Post by supergroup7 on May 14, 2007 12:32:57 GMT 8
Guro Cory, Where is the Uki standing? in front, behind, or to the side of you.. and which of his/her hands are grabbing your left shoulder? I have been trying to envision the bunkai that you are offering, and I became lost as to where my opponent was standing. Please help me.
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Post by Will Senn on Jun 14, 2007 20:40:41 GMT 8
An update - I never really followed up on Colin's comment
Here's the story that I read...
Heian forms were difficult for beginners. So, Funakoshi created shorter, more basic forms of the kata and called them Taikyoku Shodan, Nidan, etc. As for the JKA... Funakoshi was the founder, but if they chose a different road, that's their prerogative. Ten no kata is yet another example of a simplified kata for instructional purposes - but it's more like the Goju unified kata.
Also, from my readings of late - it appears that our current bevy of kata that we are left with a set of 'highlight' forms. Not random or arbitrary, but not necessarily as representative as we might have been led to believe by those practitioners handing them down. I am using the royal we, as in both TKD and Karate. If you read Funakoshi and Nagamine, there is discussion of lost kata, particularly during the war for Okinawa. Lost kata combined with errors in transmission and intentional omissions tend to enforce the idea that we have 'highlights' only. Not that it is bad, just something to be aware of when dogma rears its head.
Will
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Post by supergroup7 on Jun 14, 2007 22:11:02 GMT 8
"Lost kata combined with errors in transmission and intentional omissions tend to enforce the idea that we have 'highlights' only. Not that it is bad, just something to be aware of when dogma rears its head."
Good point! I agree.. I think that it is important to realize that the art of karate ( martial arts) is a living art similar to language. It will evolve, and change depending on the needs of the moment. For example, there are many english words that exist but are hardly ever used in our spoken language, some words that have been warped, and some words that have just been discarded.
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Post by Guro Cory on Jun 15, 2007 23:39:43 GMT 8
Guro Cory, Where is the Uki standing? in front, behind, or to the side of you.. and which of his/her hands are grabbing your left shoulder? I have been trying to envision the bunkai that you are offering, and I became lost as to where my opponent was standing. Please help me.
IN RESPONSE TO THIS:
I think the best way I perform this, I have my partner (uke) stand to the left or right of me and they are facing me. As I am standing looking forward, on my left shoulder have your uke stand square to your shoulder. As he/she reaches out w/ say thier right hand to grab your shoulder to possibly say " swing a punch w/ thier left hand" this is a common move.. you take your right hand and cross grab thier hand grabbing your shoulder, swing your left arm over top of thier grabbing arm. What this does is set you for a joint manipulation, furthermore its the first move of the form. It is what we call the "cover position" in the kata..it will resemble an "X" block type formation.. Then you take your left arm while still having control of thier right wrist, and execute a LOW BLOCK or downward block movement at the same time you pivot into your front stance as you would in the form.. this now turns you facing your opponent (to act on the other incomng hand if need be.. if executed quickly and cleanly they will not be able to strike due to they will be in pain from the joint lock you just applied on their "grabbing wrist".. This will or should bring them to thier knee.. NOTE on the wrist lock turn the pinky finger of thier grabbing hand upward allowing for thier wrist to be locked, laying your left formarm on thier right forearm.. (it's a standard joint lock) very basic movement. As you have your uke in your joint lock the next movement of taikuyoku form 1 is to step through w/ a middle reversepunch.. whihc if he is locked and on his knee the middle punch will usually be in line w/ his nose or face area. As you've exectuted that punch the next move ment is to pivot to a front stance the opposite direction. NOW what i found to work well in that scenario is to grab the head and throw your opponent as you pivot this gives a nice head twist or more serous a "neck break" And that will conclude that first portion of bunkai.. As bunkai was taught to me, that your form and actual combat are simular but not the same movements.. as you improvise adding your own flavor of technique to finish the opponent. BUNKAI was a form of finding simple and basic self defense movements out of your KATA.. each representation of BUNKAI could and does vary from person to person. For there are many explanations one could do from these forms. Ive seen a sweet foot trap and take down from this same first few moves from my teacher.. It's rather difficult to pull off but for him it is easy.. so in terms K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid) comes to mind when doing these bunkai...For self defense should not be flashy and needs to be precise and to the point... So once you start getting flashy you begin to take away from the essence of "self defense" in terms of simplicity and economy of motion. Fighting is ugly and no one technique is clean and perfect so you have to allow room for error. Which is why in this first excersise you have to realize that when your grabbed from the side the opponent maybe trying to grab you spin you to face him to hit you in the face.. so you have to be cautious and aware that punch from his / her left hand may be coming behing the grab.. Then you would have to quickly change your SD technique..
And from learning several kata in either yoursystem or other systems i've found there are many openings and many other applications from beginning forms to prepare for that encounter. One that comes to mind is a simple inside middle formarm block or a quick high block to jam or counter his attack.. I hope you can follow this.. for writting it is more difficult than actually performing it. There are so many " WhAt IF's in fighting" we can all be judgemental in performing SD techniques I get asked these questions all the time when teaching them. but when i quickly show a counter for thier counter it's usually answered rather quickly....LOL... What i've learned that helps out alot is standard "lock flow" techniques.. most schools incorporate them. I use lock flow and joint manipulations pretty regurly therefore finding a joint lock comes fairly easy.. be it a finger, wrist, elbow, or shoulder lock. ONce you have a good lock on a joint, apply it strong so as the UKI or opponent cannot resist until you finish your movement..
NOw to take this one step further, as you begin to apply your joint lock and your uki "steps back" rather then goes down you may have to modify your stance accordingly to adjust to distance and timing.. this is common when someone gets a joint lock applied.. everyone reacts differntly to these situations.. so its somethng you just have to play with and experience move by move.. but soon you'll quickly get the idea and you'll be able to play out of your kata... When and if you have any question on what a movement is in your kata/form.. always look at it from a "grabbing" perspective. I look at all the what i call " flowery or crazy" movements found in kata and take them from a perspective of being grabbed and it usually works out really well then.... For those that are familiar w/ like the TOSAN form you have the standard "C-BLOCK" cover and strike. thats another one that i could not for the life of me understand until i applied it with a joint lock and it works nicely. just like textbook... I hope this helps
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Post by Guro Cory on Jun 15, 2007 23:51:11 GMT 8
WOW you have my wheels turning now.. LOL since im on this subject, not familiar with alot of your forms but we do alot of the older forms/kata like taikuyoku forms, Hein/Pinan forms.. Naihanchi sho, and bassai sho.. So if anyone has any questions concerning these forms please ask and I'll do my best to answer what i can. I don't get on as often as i'd like but i do check periodically thank you.
cory
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Post by supergroup7 on Jul 14, 2007 22:17:53 GMT 8
From what I understand, Taikyoku patterns were not really considered part of shotokan by the JKA. Maybe it's got influences from older soft-style/chinese kung fu patterns? It'll be interesting to explore further.
Colin? Has the founder of the Taikyoku kata issue been cleared yet?
Just in case, I'll put forth what I've learned.
The Taikyoku kata are attributed to Sensei Gichin Funakoshi as are the Ten No kata. These were created much later in his life ( after he had moved to Japan, and at the same time that his son, Sensei Gigo Funakoshi was helping teach at the Honbu dojo.) Many people state that the kata were created by Sensei Gigo Funakoshi. Either way, it came from that time, and place. These kata were documented in Sensei Gichin Funakoshi's karate books. The actual first mention of the names Taikyoku were in Funakoshi's book "Karate Nyumon" which was published in December 1943. This is during the time of World War 2. I can tell you that Sensei Gichin Funakoshi was not thinking about elementary school aged children when he was working on the Taikyoku kata. The time period that these kata were created was during the time when Sensei Gichin was swamped with adult male students begging him to quickly teach them the skills that they needed to face combat at war.
"As the Manchurian Incident began to broaden in scope, Japan embarked upon preparations for a full-scale war. NOw the number of students coming to my dojo grew even greater...... my dojo could no longer contain the number of young men who desired to train. As they practiced in the yard and even out in the street, I feared that the sound of their bare fists pounding the straw-padded posts would be a nuisance to the neighbours.
"Sensei" I would often hear a young man say as he knelt before me, "I have been drafted, and I'm off to serve my country, and my emperor." Every day I would hear my students, often more than one, report to me in this fashion." Sensei Gichin Funakoshi "Karate Do- My Way of life"
What would I have done as a Sensei when faced with only a few months to help my students prepare for war? I would have simplified the complexity of the more advanced kata even more, and bring movements down to a handful of basic requirements that would be most effective to help them develop the most skills in the least amount of time.
It is a mystery to me why there is an obvious lack of usage of the Taikyoku kata, and Ten No kata in the JKA syllabus. I have never performed, nor seen the Ten No kata performed. We have only rarely done the Taikyoku Shodan in my area. It is a shame if we lose such a piece of Shotokan history, and such an efficient way of teaching karate skills.
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