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Post by wmioch on Nov 15, 2005 20:37:41 GMT 8
In my experience I've come across a few different types of Kata (mostly in Karate, but it is applicable across different arts). Roughly, I'll call them Traditional, Semi-Traditional and Modern.
Traditional Kata are those that were created 100 years ago or more. Their exact purpose and the meaning of their name may be lost, legend or open to interpretation. The moves are highly formalised, but because they are so accurate differences between schools, versions, decade learnt, etc are very obvious.
Semi-Traditional Kata are those that were created approx. 50 years ago, give or take 20. They are created along the same highly formalised lines as Traditional kata, yet their creators are still alive, or recently deceased, and are often only being taught third or fourth generation. The meaning of the name and philosophy of the kata is usually clearly cut and the purpose behind the techniques may also be clearly understood, but still taught regimentally.
Modern kata are those that have been created very recently, and are usually being taught by the person that created them, or their students. They are usually less formalised, but at the same time the techniques are more obvious. The name may even be English or interchangably named between two languages.
My question is, what do you percieve the different benefits and disadvantages to be with each of these different types of Kata? What is more important when teaching? At what level? Which one is more useful?
I would like to hear your opinions before I voice some of my own.
Bill
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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 16, 2005 10:10:32 GMT 8
I think that anyone can make up kata and anyone can modify kata. I'm not saying that's right, but I think it can easily happen. For me however, I value a set of kata that was created by Gen Choi Hong Hi from what can be seen as a variant from Shotokan Karate. My appreciation of this new 'system' for military training is as a collection of strategic fighting concepts similar to 'Art of War' or 'The Book of Five Rings'. Saying this, that is the way I judge other kata. Do they communicate a system of strategy, tactics, techniques, and exercises? Many other katas may teach elements but hammering out a cohesive big picture is pretty challenging.
For teaching, all I think a black belt needs from this set is really maybe the first three forms of our style. If I can't use the first three forms and complementary drills as a way to transmit a good portion of my expertise for a new BB, then I am a poor instructor. The rest of the forms creates the opportunity to discuss other scenarios and allows one to adapt/innovate using case studies and situation analysis.
So saying, many of the katas would probably come with as much information on applications as other katas. If we were to try and coax such secrets out from them, then there is little difference between a time-tested kata from Okinawa and a recent kata hammered out from East LA. I think the kata is the platform and the instructor is the speaker. The applications are in the delivery! :-)
Colin
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Post by sifuwhite on Nov 16, 2005 12:54:47 GMT 8
I like traditional Chinese Forms, I have had to modify one or two movement for my body structure, but when I teach them I leave in the traditional moves for the younger guys and gals to do. Old bones don't move as well. Creating modern forms is ok if you like acrobatics.
Tim
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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 16, 2005 14:34:53 GMT 8
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Post by supergroup7 on Nov 16, 2005 20:30:39 GMT 8
Interesting take on kata, Bill! Looking at it in 3 ways, Traditional, Semi-traditional, and modern..
I do not look at it that way. I feel that kata is like poetry, or a song.
For example, if I want to sing "Three blind mice" I would have to use the proper tempo, rhythm, and tone. If I change too much of the song, you would no longer recognize it as "Three blind mice". However, I can change some things, and still maintain the melody enough that you could recognize it. This happens with kata.. One of the older Masters created a series of movements with a purpose to teach something important... The kata was handed down student to student to keep alive that important concept. Some students felt that certain parts of the kata could be adapted, or even removed, and the kata was changed. However, you can still recognize the main link back to the original kata.
The fact that Modern Sensei are creating kata to share important concepts does not make their kata any less formalized than the ones that were created in the past. If you change the kata too much it will cease to look like the original, and it will become it's own entity.
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Post by sifuwhite on Nov 18, 2005 14:18:25 GMT 8
Thanks Colin, really make be feel old now....hahahahlol Tim
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Post by wmioch on Nov 18, 2005 21:54:36 GMT 8
Man, that "Bill is Awesome Kata" looked pretty sweet.... As for acrobatics, modern Chinese forms have a tendency to ne like that. I remember a teacher of mine after teaching me a shaolin long staff form he learnt while in China, telling me about how he had been shown the form, with flips and acrobatics, and he had to coax them into showing him the "old" one without them. That same teacher however changed (for his adult beginners) Taikyoku kata into something more like you would do in a self defence situation, since he didn't think it was useful for what he was aiming for. He still taught it to his juniors, for different reasons. Instead of rigid Zenkutsu dachi and basic punches, it had sabaki off the line and counter punching as a simple response to a grab. It still followed the form basically, but was different enough to be its own kata. There were no acrobatics, but there were also no set stances to learn. Nothing old bones couldn't do! PS: great response Mir
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Post by sifuwhite on Nov 18, 2005 22:12:24 GMT 8
There is a story about kata especially weapons forms that I would like to share with this forum. Master Keeney of the Professional Karate Commission was at the Battle of Atlanta with Joe Corely (Director). He observed a young man in his teens perform a Bo Kata or form. He thought it was pretty good. Then Mr. Keeney asked the young man what karate School he belong to, and the kid replied I am not into Karate I am into Gymnastics, but one day I hope my partent will let me train in Karate.
So, is kata entertainment, athletic ability or What?
Tim
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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 18, 2005 22:27:54 GMT 8
That's not kata. That's a gymnast holding a stick and whirling it around. :-)
I don't have a problem with modern kata. If done well the kata may serve the modern practitioner better than a traditional one. Which traditional kata teaches a person to spar with a friend with gloves one AND not hurt the other person? If a good portion of your MA is about sparring or competitions, such kata may be GREAT for you.
But I will stick with my semi-traditional and my traditional kata. The general cooked up Chang Hon based on Shotokan, so I reckon that the base line is good enough. This system gives me a strong sense of belonging. While I don't have a hoard of practitioners hanging around me, I draw inspiration from martial artists that have gone before me. It makes me feel like I'm part of their legacy, and I draw personal strength from that.
This has kept me practicing for 22 years already, and still I'm really excited when I get to martial arts. If it wasn't for kata, I'd have switched to aiki years ago.
Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Nov 18, 2005 22:52:05 GMT 8
*blush* Just doing my best.
That question can be applied to all martial arts training: Kobudo, sparring, kata, etc. etc.
I believe that the answer lies in the heart of the person doing the actions. What is that person attempting to perform?
If they are focused on gymnastics, jumping flips, with the add-on of using this ability to apply a form of self defense then it is a martial art. They are using the skill of gymnastics in a protective way.
However, if the practioner is looking for better ways to "wow" a movie-going audience using the moves of the arts, such as many modern movie martial artists, Jackie Chan, and Bruce Lee come to mind... then the performance becomes entertainment. By the way, I do not belittle their effort. It is through the inspiration of movies such as "Karate Kid", or "Enter the Dragon" that many, many authentic Martial artists have been lured into the beauty of the arts.
However, your question was whether Kata is entertainment, athletic ability, or what? Again, I feel that it is within the person doing the kata to bring out of it what he/she wants at that time. I have used kata to increase my stamina, power, and athletic ability by doing 24 of them in a row with full power. By the third kata, my body was shaking with the effort.. and I pushed my body to continue. I have done kata as entertainment.. wherein I put on some nice oldtime rock and roll music, and lightly did kata to the timing of the music... working towards flowing from technique to technique.. and enjoying the experience.. almost like a dance.
I have done kata at my fastest speed possible. Looking towards doing proper technique but making the kata last only 20-30 seconds. This helps me develop bursts of speed, and agility. It cements the moves of the kata within my mind so that the kata becomes one entity rather than separate motions.
But when I seriously do kata.. I go into "fighting" mode mentally, and physically. I face the "virtual" opponents with total concentration, paying attention to potential bunkai revealing itself to me through the movement of my body, and on achieving proper focus on each move as if it is the last one I have to save my life.
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Post by supergroup7 on Nov 18, 2005 23:02:43 GMT 8
That's not kata. That's a gymnast holding a stick and whirling it around. :-) I agree totally, Colin. That boy does not know what the stick does as it flies around him.. so he cannot use it effectively. I have never thought of it that way before, Colin, but you just reveal a very important truth to me. I feel such joy when I can look at videos of the Masters doing the same kata as I from the 1960's. I feel a sense of honor that I'm attempting to achieve a portion of their skill. I'm always awed that a little Mommy from Canada is stepping in the same pathway as Sensei Gichin Funakoshi, Sensei Kanazawa, Sensei Yaguchi, Sosai Oyama. As you know, Colin, it is kata that brought me into the arts, kata which sustained me when the pain of training discouraged me, kata which entrances me with it's hidden lessons, kata which empowers me to continue. If it wasn't for kata, I never would have been introduced to the wonderful world of martial arts.
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Post by sifuwhite on Nov 22, 2005 1:56:57 GMT 8
Kata, can give a student a sense of accomplishment. Know that he/she can remember the movements, discipline themselves to remember the sequences that occur. They can understand the interpretations of the forms to almost the academic levels and thought processes.So Kata/forms are very important to any art.
Sifu White.
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Post by supergroup7 on Nov 22, 2005 3:43:27 GMT 8
Kata, can give a student a sense of accomplishment. I've felt that! More than once!! There is a satisfaction to being able to get through the kata without forgetting, or mis-stepping. Your confidence builds.. and you step up one more rung of the skill ladder.
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Post by sifuwhite on Nov 22, 2005 3:56:26 GMT 8
Kata, can give a student a sense of accomplishment. I've felt that! More than once!! There is a satisfaction to being able to get through the kata without forgetting, or mis-stepping. Your confidence builds.. and you step up one more rung of the skill ladder. Glad to know someone real feels the form/kata. When I was younger I could do Forms for testing with no problem. However, when it came to competition, I would forget something, make a wrong move etc.... The one thing I did learn from the competition standpoint is that I now after many years of practice and dedication I can do them for competition and feel real confortable doing them in front of others. Sifu White
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Post by supergroup7 on Nov 22, 2005 22:29:08 GMT 8
The one thing I did learn from the competition standpoint is that I now after many years of practice and dedication I can do them for competition and feel real confortable doing them in front of others. Yes Sifu White, that happens alot to many people. Their mind focuses on the fear of making a mistake in front of so many people, or showing off how good they are, instead of living the kata. I believe that this is the major reason why kyu belt, and Dan belt exams are so important. It's more of a mental thing.. than physical ability.
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