|
Post by Colin Wee on Feb 22, 2006 20:20:35 GMT 8
|
|
|
Post by Colin Wee on Mar 1, 2006 13:43:00 GMT 8
|
|
mat
Visitor
Posts: 45
|
Post by mat on Oct 18, 2006 2:07:05 GMT 8
Here's an article I found www.bstkd.com/RoleforPoomse.htmWritten by a tkd practicionner. I find it interesting, as when I first started karate, it was shotokan karate and I found many similarities in what I had learned before. Even if it was years later. Most forms where there, but I understood why. Which is something that never happened for me in twd. It gained more "depth" in the shotokan instruction I later received. Colin, I'd be very interested in seeing a good instruction in twd. We have a twd class next to our karate class. It's basically what I had been taught before. I moderated my own comments on the subject to the intructor in place, but I just might talk with him about it. Anyways, I'm off to read those articles you posted before.
|
|
|
Post by Colin Wee on Oct 18, 2006 13:43:40 GMT 8
Here's an article I found www.bstkd.com/RoleforPoomse.htmWritten by a tkd practicionner. I find it interesting, as when I first started karate, it was shotokan karate and I found many similarities in what I had learned before. Even if it was years later. Most forms where there, but I understood why. Which is something that never happened for me in twd. It gained more "depth" in the shotokan instruction I later received. Colin, I'd be very interested in seeing a good instruction in twd. We have a twd class next to our karate class. It's basically what I had been taught before. I moderated my own comments on the subject to the intructor in place, but I just might talk with him about it. Anyways, I'm off to read those articles you posted before. Well, the more I research shotokan the more I'm appreciating the similarities and also the dissimilarities between the type of Taekwondo that I do and Karate. I've really been enjoying seeing the transition of techniques between karate and TKD. As for instruction in TKD. I would be very interested in seeing good instruction too! Most of the TKD schools I've seen are more sport oriented practices. Stuart's school was a major departure from that ... and he has a really good approach to his style and training. You are of course more than welcomed to fly over and visit with us, if you like to train in Traditional TKD. :-) Colin
|
|
|
Post by Colin Wee on Oct 18, 2006 14:07:58 GMT 8
I have a problem with this. If the author is a TKD practitioner, then I would say that the forms he had practiced were arbitrary because he was taught them in an arbitrary manner. The last three years of looking at my forms in depth have shown me a rich backdrop of possibilities - both from the karate traditions (which they preserve to a fair degree), and from the training potential of the whole set of forms.
He does however hint of the overall expected ability of each practitioner. The forms are only a platform for training - further skills require a lot more effort from instructors. For instance, I have just spend three months with a beginner, showing him applications from our first form. I reckon from here on out, he would then be ready to embark on further practice to get himself ready for a white belt grading. Maybe another two months? In other schools, he'd have to learn the form plus a lot of additional techniques not related to the form for his test. My point is that the form contains sufficient material that will keep any practitioner satisfied at their skill level.
And why is that? It is this way because it takes a lot of effort to figure out the whole d*** syllabus. Then what? How do you justify teaching students with short staying power? Or how to teach it in two short sessions a week? It's tough!
Colin
|
|
mat
Visitor
Posts: 45
|
Post by mat on Oct 18, 2006 21:43:10 GMT 8
Hi again, A little quote : I have a problem with this. If the author is a TKD practitioner, then I would say that the forms he had practiced were arbitrary because he was taught them in an arbitrary manner. The last three years of looking at my forms in depth have shown me a rich backdrop of possibilities - both from the karate traditions (which they preserve to a fair degree), and from the training potential of the whole set of forms.
Isn't all teaching arbitrary? I think the guy who wrote the article did it with good intentions, but limited knowledge. Just as I have limited knowledge on TKD. Even in my karate classes, where the information is... well, more abundent (thanks to the instructor, not necesseraly the style) some students don't want to learn that. So it's kind of a personnal responsability too. For the teacher and the student. I could simply learn forms, the official bunkai and not look anywhere else and I'd still pass grades and probably end up a shodan somewhere in the future. But with limited knowledge. :-) He does however hint of the overall expected ability of each practitioner. The forms are only a platform for training - further skills require a lot more effort from instructors. For instance, I have just spend three months with a beginner, showing him applications from our first form. I reckon from here on out, he would then be ready to embark on further practice to get himself ready for a white belt grading. Maybe another two months? In other schools, he'd have to learn the form plus a lot of additional techniques not related to the form for his test. My point is that the form contains sufficient material that will keep any practitioner satisfied at their skill level.
Woah, some sentences that I've read elsewhere come to mind and a question that came to my mind a while ago: -I'm beginning to think that we learn too much too fast. (I'll explain) -Practice, practice and practice some more, then bunkai will come to you. which sends me to another quote : How do you justify teaching students with short staying power? Or how to teach it in two short sessions a week? It's tough!My thoughts are all over the place now, I'll try to focus them.. Exactly. It's tough. In fact, it's much more than tough. It's more like mission impossible. Let's say I go to my classes - (2 times a week) - and do not practice at home at all. I've got 3h of MA a week. minus warm-up and various things, it comes down to roughly 2h or MA a week. In two hours, you have to: -Learn kata -Practice kata -Learn Kumite, practice kumite -Learn bunkai, practice bunkai -Learn tehodoki, practice tehodoki -learn basics, practice basics. - and so on, and so on. Say you practice 9 months a year, that makes about what... 38? 40 weeks of practice? at 2h a week, that's about 80h a year. Roughly. ha, what the hey, say 100h a year. That's 2 week worth of working hours back to back. 2 weeks. And it takes around... 4, 5 years to get to shodan? that's a 2 months of practice. And that's not so far from the thruth. How long does it take to actually become good in any day job? Mireille hinted that we're all hobbyist. We are. :-) Sure it's tough. D*** it's near impossible. So what kind of tutoring the guy got? I have no idea. But yeah, put aside martial considerations and focus on the sport aspect, there's no way you can learn as much. So... back to a question I got, the syllabus of forms is nice, but the way we train (generally!) there's so much to learn, I often wonder if we should not wait longer between grades. Yesterday, I did a yellow belt form. Although I practice it daily, I still got corrections on it. And I'll probably get some next time too.... All in all, I have no answer to your question. It's a reality that all MA instructors have to face and deal with. Now, if a student says he doesn't learn enough, there's the instructor's responsability and his own. Like you said, there is much to learn just in the basics forms and your current level form. But just how to you compress joint locks, takedowns, strikes, blocks, ground work, weapons and whatnot in 2h a week? Haha, no Idea. But you chose to be an instructor I mean no disrespect - just to be sure Mathieu
|
|
mat
Visitor
Posts: 45
|
Post by mat on Oct 19, 2006 1:02:28 GMT 8
And thanks for the invitation. We have a division in new zealand. in christchurch. If I ever have the chance to go, I'll let you know for sure! Good day
|
|
|
Post by Colin Wee on Oct 19, 2006 14:28:42 GMT 8
Isn't all teaching arbitrary? No. Some teaching is arbitrary, but not all teaching is arbitrary. Teaching should be objective oriented. If you constantly fire from the hip, the student will not be clear as to what you're doing. Great teachers will appear to be arbitrary, but the only thing arbitrary is the teaching and learning method - not what is being taught. I totally agree that it is up to the student to invest his/her own time into training. There is just so much a teacher can give you in the few hours per week. The student has to spend time to acqaint himself with the art on a personal level. I am still reaping the reward of such an approach. I think you have misunderstood. Or else if you haven't misunderstood, you have too quickly jumped to your own conclusions. Look around this forum ... it wasn't set up to talk about 'the best and the fastest'. This particular student has learned perhaps three or four applications. This has spanned about three months. But to get to the point where he can learn this, he had to learn stances, body mechanics, etc ... which have all come from the form required at white belt stage. Many instructors out there try to make their new BBs the best in the world. This is not necessary. An adequate BB is only a person that has learned all the basic techniques and is going to put them (and himself to the test). These techniques are contained within our pattern set and describe a skills program that is appropriate for the level the student is currently at. This is the idea that is fed to most martial art students and was the kind of philosophy that won me my first BB in 1987 yet equipped me with little to no real skill. No bunkai is going to fall on your lap even with practice. Bunkai comes from experience, observation, further learning, applications, discussion, and visualisation. Mind numbing drills and line work will not produce bunkai. It is up to the individual to practice - and to practice the right thing. If they don't, they don't pass. This doesn't mean to say they're not going to learn anything decent. Even at white belt a committed student should be able to do some serious damage to an opponent. If not then all other 'short and easy' self defence classes would be equally useless. Sport TKD is not my bag baby. I didn't choose to be an instructor ... being an instructor chose me. Colin
|
|
mat
Visitor
Posts: 45
|
Post by mat on Oct 19, 2006 23:10:30 GMT 8
Hi again! Great teachers will appear to be arbitrary, but the only thing arbitrary is the teaching and learning method - not what is being taught. Got it. Errrr... Maybe I expressed myself badly. It happens that some of my thoughts go awol. Add to that, language change. It happens. What I meant is that originally, I think that kata was learnt a different way. Meaning that a student would study a kata for a long number of years, as O'Sensei learned Seisan, practiced it for 4 years, then learned Sanchin, for 4 years again. Before being shown anything else. Choki Motobu is reknowned to have practiced a few kata only. Following that way of thinking, I myself the question : "do we learn too much, too fast?" I know this forum is not meant as a : fastest and bestest. If it is what I expressed, my apologies, I did not mean it that way. Then again, I think the question is already answered. It's up to the student to work. That opens my mind... would it be that before, they didn't have as much grades. Meaning you only learned martial arts. No kyu or gup. and that would kind of explain why they passed so long on a specific kata? I also wonder if it was the case with traditionnal tkd. I have not read that kind of experience in tkd. Got it too. They produce the necessary skills though. Basics? I know, sorry if I hinted otherwise. Long thing short, I just wonder what martial applications you learn while doing sport MA, be it tkd or karate or another one. But that again remains the concern of the practicionner, I guess. But there's just so much you miss out on if it's the way one chooses to go. And I was refering to was is being taught generally these days. Not only in tkd, but in any martial art. I.E. a reference to Modern MA versus Old fashioned MA. It's the first time a man called me baby too. It's really weird. I meant that take only sport MA, and you lose a lot. As for teaching, I get you. Meant no offense either. Good day! Or night for your part of the world. Mathieu
|
|
|
Post by stuarta on Oct 20, 2006 2:38:15 GMT 8
I'd have to agree with you and also figure that hes a WTF guy and hasnt had any indepth study of the Ch'ang hon forms which contain a myriad of TKD signiture techniques, like the kicks! They are in mine :-) While i agree with this to a point, I know of a few schools that arnt as "ad-hoc" as many may like to believe. mine & Colins for a start and thats just from here! Also, Im not sure why he mentions judo, as most of the judo today rarely do forms at all, despiter them being part of the system! Stuart
|
|
|
Post by stuarta on Oct 20, 2006 2:43:31 GMT 8
I think tahst the crux of it Mat. I have enough on my plate with my own system, i sure as hell dont have time to look at any other in such an indepth way needed to make assumptions like that! As Im sure you`ve figured out, whilst the blets a nice, the knowledge is far far more important! Ahh! But martial arts is a life long study is it not! My take is, dont cater for the fly by nights, kata for those that are in for the long haul! No, i do it for a living (and the love of it) ;D Stuart
|
|
|
Post by Colin Wee on Oct 20, 2006 11:53:59 GMT 8
What I meant is that originally, I think that kata was learnt a different way. Meaning that a student would study a kata for a long number of years, Yes. You're right. In fact, reading this a couple of years has changed my own approach to pattern practice, and since then my practice has become more meaningful and more relevant to the skills I need. From what I read, they also practiced those kata slower than what we do now. I've got a hypothesis on this, and I've not been disappointed about it too. I also know a really good Goju Ryu sensei that exclaimed that each Kata is "its own martial art." What a profound statement. Probably. One Kata every four months is too short. There's so much to gain even from my first form. Well, I think that if you had something significant to gain even from one kata, then all you need is a few and you'd be right. And also, if you were walking out of your door every morning thinking who's going to kill me next .... well, there's little reason to obsess about kyus or gups. I don't think it occurs outside of Stuart's or my (and my instructors) schools. I'd like to be proven wrong though. Got it too. They produce the necessary skills though. Basics? You'd learn some apps to be sure. But they don't translate to how you spar. ANd how you spar doesn't translate to how you self defend. I'm not knocking sport anything. I think sport tkd allows you good gap closing skills, dynamics, aggressiveness, focus mindset, coordination, etc. But self defence is not sparring, and is not about winning trophies. It's apathy. It's limited time. It's turnover of students. It's feeling flat after your intermediate students and seniors leave before giving back what you gave them. I rarely have encountered dojos which give anything of quality to lower or intermediate ranks. It's actually a quote from a movie. :-) Do you know which one? There are things to gain from sport MA. With a small switch in mentality, the skills are transportable. It is not all a sad loss. Thanks for the posts. Sorry I took it a little harshly. Colin
|
|
|
Post by Colin Wee on Oct 20, 2006 11:58:37 GMT 8
I think tahst the crux of it Mat. I have enough on my plate with my own system, i sure as hell dont have time to look at any other in such an indepth way needed to make assumptions like that! That is way correct. This is similar to a conversation I had with another of my BB friends in the states. If all bunkai in TKD forms were bunkai regarding aiki locks or pressure points, then we should all be doing aiki or pp or fill-in-the-blanks-jutsu instead of TKD. There's some basic skills that need to be included, but other than that, a practitioner should have enough in his system to be *totally* satisfied with it as a Complete Training Program TM. If I went for belts and uniforms to look good for chicks I would have quit a long time ago. There's not a day that goes by that I don't practice - either physically or mentally. I love it too!!!! Colin
|
|
mat
Visitor
Posts: 45
|
Post by mat on Oct 24, 2006 1:35:23 GMT 8
"Thanks for the posts. Sorry I took it a little harshly." Don't worry about it. On my first time on forums, I was actually shaken by answers I got. But I understand that sometimes, what I actually write is about... 15% of the total message I would have wanted to write. Baby? From Austin Powers? YEAH BABY! I'm glad both of you found your way through teaching, or that teaching found you. Good teachers are wanted... needed in MA. Luckily, I ended up with a good one, a good style and a good man. I don't know if one day I'll end up a teacher. For now, learning is enough. Time is short, but I'll be back with another thing on this subject. Mathieu
|
|
|
Post by Colin Wee on Oct 24, 2006 12:27:07 GMT 8
"Thanks for the posts. Sorry I took it a little harshly." Don't worry about it. On my first time on forums, I was actually shaken by answers I got. But I understand that sometimes, what I actually write is about... 15% of the total message I would have wanted to write. Sometimes MA practitioners get a little jumpy. Even when I met with Sifu Tim White, whom I take as a teacher, he was very polite and conservative with any tips/criticism/opinions. The problem with online discussions is that you don't get to read the posters non-verbal communication nor approach. Misunderstandings happen. However, you were pretty much on topic. So long as this added to the overall discussion, we should continue. Yeah Baby! Once upon a time all I wanted to do was fight. But if I had continued that way, I'd probably have woken up one day and decided that just jogging or lifting weights would be a better way to keep fit. Being an instructor helped me organise my system and research it. I am making more sense of it now; much of what I was exposed to has been ... chaotic. You're welcomed to. Colin
|
|