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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 24, 2005 10:18:36 GMT 8
I'll check my book when I go to the school today. But, I think there were 20 listed in the book. Aren't there 24 forms in the ITF now? Seems like some were created following the publishing of this book in 1965. Apparently he took out one from the original and then added a couple of more to make up 24. I wonder how it was/is with the Okinawans. Seems like instead of beating them, they joined them. Certainly that's my attitude. But I'm sure Gen Choi would rather that connection just disappeared. Many articles and interviews I've heard off the net from him really are not complimentary of Japanese. If you check out the TKD Kata discussion forum you'll see me making comparisions between some of the kata and bassai or tekki. Yes, the moves are really quite similar. So in trying to understand the identify of TKD, one idea is to identify that the objective of TKD and Shotokan are different. TKD is a military art, and has to be easily taught to grunts - and of course be effective. No subtlety in technique. Just teach the most simple and basic thing that could work. Also TKD has its own personality (as do all arts), and subgroups have sub-personalities too (as my school does). As a side note, I was in the military, and can I say how stupid recruits are? It takes a huge effort to train them in all the aspects of the army they need to know. Weapons handling, bayonet fighting, night manouvers, water bourne exercises, tactical movement, passing the obstacle course, etc. Can you imagine adding another requirement? Taekwondo training? Man! Forget any subtle bunkai baby. It aint' gonna sink in. Colin
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Post by Tim Schutte on Nov 26, 2005 3:22:48 GMT 8
In an earlier post, y9ou wrote, "Furthermore, I really hate to say this but a lot of basai seems scattered through Chang Hon katas. " This makes alot of sense since Choi Hong Hi studied karate in Japan prior to returning to Korea. He created the Chang Hon forms in 1950. Yes, I have read that he was a 2nd Dan Shotokan Karate-ka and also taught Shotokan at the Y. Of course this piece of info is unverifiable. I also say "I really hate to say this" because many TKD practitioners aren't aware of this connection, Choi Hong Hi was himself anti-Japanese, and something like this may not really need to be pointed out. REALLY. Shouldn't there be 21 patterns rather than 20 there? What karate forms are listed? Has he made any changes to them at that point in time? Colin Hi Colin, Correct. General Choi studied with Funakoshi Gichin before his death in 1953. So, it stands to reason that your forms are similar to that found in Shotokan. The interesting thing about forms and their stylistic differences is that each teacher/sensei/sibok/sifu adds his or her own 'flavor' to the forms they teach. So, the Goju version of Passai Dai is similar--but not the same as--the Shotokan version. There is also a Shorinryu version of Bassai-Dai. Shorinryu is the other 'base system' on Okinawa that most modern styles are built upon. I practice Isshinryu, a blend of Shorinryu and Gojuryu. We do not practice Bassai, either Sho or Dai. Our forms include: Seisan (Hangetsu) Seiunchin (Seienchin? not sure of the Shotokan version) Naihanchi (Tekki--we only practice -Shodan version) Wansu (Empi) Chinto (Gankaku) Kusanku (Kanku-Dai) Sunsu (A blend of techniques from the other forms, unique to Isshinryu) Sanchin (Gojuryu, not generally practiced in Shotokan) Thanks, Tim
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Post by wmioch on Nov 26, 2005 8:30:51 GMT 8
Colin, my understanding about the Okinawans is that they developed Karate as we generally know it (that's up to plenty of dispute) to combat their Japanese occupants who were armoured and carrying weapons whilst such things were banned for the occupied people. This is also why all the kobudo/weaponry from Okinawa is farming equipment (Kama, Sai, Bo, Tonfa, Nunchaku?) and has such a strong affiliation with Karate as we know it. Kind of like an underground resistance.
I think, the Okinawans then tried, and failed against the Japanese, then didn't put up too much fight as a people after that.
This is mostly just stories I have heard, and not very verified.
From Wikipedia "Perhaps Okinawa's most famous cultural export is karate, probably a product of the close ties with, and influence of China on Okinawan culture. Karate is thought to be a synthesis of Chinese kung fu with traditional Okinawan martial arts. A ban on weapons in Okinawa for two long periods in its history also very likely contributed to its development."
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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 26, 2005 11:04:04 GMT 8
Correct. General Choi studied with Funakoshi Gichin before his death in 1953. So, it stands to reason that your forms are similar to that found in Shotokan. In the last few years I've really enjoyed reading up on the history of the evolution of the martial arts; esp. in regards to my own practice. I don't discount the influence of Shotokan on TKD. I am amazed by the fact that modern TKD is so different from its Shotokan roots. My practice is much more similar to karate, and I recognise the link. But I know that TKD has its own personality. It is my mission to understand and to promote that personality and Classical TKD's identity. I certainly believe that. Even if forms are taught as dance moves, the choreographer gets to add his/her own English to it. My belief is that the set of kata we have is there to transmit the instructor's experience. No other objective is paramount. All other micro details (angles, traditional bunkai, meaning of names, etc) are there to facilitate the transmission of the instructor's expertise. I believe that this is influenced by the game plan. :-) Each team has a different game plan. No team plays the same way. I'm going to a Goju seminar today! And yes, I'm familiar with the lineage of Issinryu. Very interesting. Colin
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Post by rmclain on Nov 29, 2005 0:48:12 GMT 8
I don't discount the influence of Shotokan on TKD. I am amazed by the fact that modern TKD is so different from its Shotokan roots. My practice is much more similar to karate, and I recognise the link.
Hi Colin,
TKD today is different than 40 or 50 years ago. Arts evolve with their own flavor over time due to instructor's experiences/cultural influences or needed applications.
From what I have seen, and this varies by instructor, ITF TKD is more like it's karate roots than the WTF version. The evolution of the WTF pushed for a physical change from the karate-based roots of TKD. They succeeded, as it doesn't resemble karate anymore. But, if you look at the intended application of the WTF (sport/tournaments) it only makes sense that the training will change.
R. McLain
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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 29, 2005 10:08:09 GMT 8
TKD today is different than 40 or 50 years ago. Arts evolve with their own flavor over time due to instructor's experiences/cultural influences or needed applications. Changes can even occur overnight. How easy is it for instructors to come up with a kickboxing studio? Simple it seems. The power generation for most ITF schools make them really different from karate. But yes, I'd agree with that. Actually Taekwondo as a whole seems to be more aligned with chinese arts. The sine wave in particular and the more snappy and flowing moves makes hyungs look like chinese type patterns. Very different from Basai - body slams, low stances, low knee kick, forward driving lunge punches, etc. Colin
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Post by rmclain on Nov 29, 2005 20:12:24 GMT 8
I saw students in ITF practicing forms using the sine wave. My early 1965 copy of CHoi Hong Hi's book doesn't make any mention of this. I heard that he added this motion sometime in the 1980's. The instructors my student previously earned a 1st dan ITF black belt from didn't emphasize the sine wave.
Some of the Chuan-fa forms I practice use a stomping motion on some downward blocks, but not on any punches or kicks. The sine wave motion actually confuses me a bit as to why students are doing it. From an engineering standpoint, that motion adds nothing as far as power or speed to any strikes or blocks that are not going downward - perhaps some extra friction on the ground between the supporting surfaces (feet & ground).
R. McLain
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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 29, 2005 23:04:02 GMT 8
I heard that he added this motion sometime in the 1980's. Yeah. It's a recent thing. THe sine wave has the same objective - to marry one's weight with gravity, augmenting the strike. I don't like the sine wave. I think it doesn't add any significant power to the move. HOWEVER, I think as WTF practitioners go, I think the sine wave is complementary to kicking techniques, and may help kickers 'integrate' some hand strikes with the natural COG/posture which they use while kicking. Colin
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Post by sbwright on Feb 10, 2006 14:11:03 GMT 8
I was on the Warrior Scholar forum the other day discussing the throw in the 3 and 4th moves of Bassai has any one else come across this application the move is apparently called a Komanage (spining top).
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Post by Colin Wee on Feb 10, 2006 22:12:38 GMT 8
It sounds like a kokyunage, a breath or timing throw. From a cross handed grab, the defender spins behind the attacker and pulls the attacker's COG over and toward attacker's front foot. Then immediately turns attacker's head to the back and forces COG up and backwards, dropping attacker on his butt. However, given that the form does not *encourage* the practitioner to move backwards while turning around, the application is not an exact fit here. I suppose the inside outward mid block could be a grab from a right punch or right shoulder grab. The turn backwards using the right foot initiates the left hand snaking around attacker's neck, forcing COG forward. Then the move that brings left hand to hip and right hand performing a inside outward mid block either throws attacker down or breaks his neck. If we go by Dr Clayton's idea, Bassai, or penetrating the fortress is about attacking a much larger force - from the inside. This means that from a position of weakness, the small attacking force forces it's way through the larger mass. If it was such an opening, a throw might not be the application that I would choose to do. I would like to do apps that miight make an attacker scream in pain and drop down onto the floor. The screaming adds to the general confusion. But of course this is a brilliant app that can be added to a Bassai SD lesson. There are some pictures of the komanage here www.geocities.com/curt_wvong/Throws.htmIt's not a kokyunage, and it seems easy to conceive it as an arm strike, if required. Nice app! Thanks for that. Colin
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Post by Colin Wee on Feb 18, 2006 12:55:21 GMT 8
I just modified the second post I made to this thread - looking at step 41 and 42. Just click back a page to see. Colin
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Post by rmclain on Mar 8, 2006 5:43:05 GMT 8
Sorry about the delay. Forgot about posting this information until today.
The book is copyrighted 1965 by Daeha Publication Company: Seoul, Korea - Printed by Hwasong Printing Company. Ohara Publications, Inc. (5650 W. Washington Blvd. Los Angeles, California 90016) was the distributor in North America. My father picked up this book while on leave in New York City in 1965.
Begining on Page 174, are the forms: Chon-Ji Tan Gun Tosan Won Hyo Yul-Kok Chung-gun Toi-gye Hwarang Chung-mu Kwang-gae po-un KaeBaek Yu-sin Chung-jang Ul-Ji Sam-il Choi-yong Kodang Sejong Tong-il
On Page 216, the karate forms begin:
Heian 1-5 Batsai Enbi Rohai Kong Son Kun Tekki 1-3 Jit-te Hangetsu Jion
R. McLain
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Post by Colin Wee on Sept 21, 2006 9:11:11 GMT 8
Passai Apps
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Post by Colin Wee on Oct 5, 2006 14:05:06 GMT 8
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Post by Colin Wee on Oct 8, 2006 20:55:38 GMT 8
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