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Post by supergroup7 on May 1, 2006 20:56:32 GMT 8
Yesterday, I faced my first opponent during sparring who would grab my blocking arm before attacking me. As a first experience, this threw me into confusion. I've never had my blocking arm hampered during sparring in that way before. He would also grab my gi sleeve, or shoulder forcing me into a closer distance than I wanted at that moment. I'd say that a good 30 percent of our time together was spent with him holding me at some point. I had to think creatively, and react.. but there were no tools in my mental toolbox to handle this suddenly "different" way of sparring.
I tried breaking the hold, but he'd grab onto something else... and I quickly realized that I'd be spending all of my energy getting him to let go.
I decided that I'd let him hold on if he wants to, and I'd just kick at him, and make him want to back away from me. Seeing that we were so close, I focused on sweeping his leg, and sending elbow strikes, and knee kicks to his center. It had some effect on my opponent, and gained me some breathing space once in awhile. Man.. did I feel crowded by the whole thing!
How do you handle such type of sparring? I was told that grabbing the opponent is a Goju Ryu type of sparring.
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Post by fluffy on May 2, 2006 4:02:52 GMT 8
Grab back. He is obviously not suppose to and if he sees the impact maybe he won't anymore. Is there a rule against it? I assume you are sparring with the basic ITF rules...
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Post by Colin Wee on May 2, 2006 13:49:39 GMT 8
Our rules are simple - you can hurt but not injure. Meaning no straight shots into knees, no pokes into eyes, and I guess ... control yourself. This has worked well and opens up the possibility of going to the ground, throws (for seniors against seniors), groin shots, light no touch kicks to knees, and grabs, etc. When someone is grabbing you and coming forward to blitz you, it's really hard to defend against that (even if he's not grabbing). So basically when you're grabbing, you should blitz the opponent or hitting him hard. All other grabs in other words should be transient tactics so you grab, hit, release, hit, etc. A person who tries to hold on with a grab to limit your movement is asking for trouble because he only has one upper body weapon against your two. You should look towards locks or throws or counter attacks (as you have done). Linear based karate is designed for such a position. But you don't have to think that you need to 'release' yourself for karate to work. Try working with a release and only doing it so far so that you have applied some tension. If you then launch yourself in any direction, the hand 'has' to follow - if you get what I mean. Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on May 12, 2006 1:18:50 GMT 8
If I launch myself in any direction, then the hand HAS to follow..
Ha ha ha.. of course. and then he is unbalanced... unless he decides to let go.. and either way he is in trouble.
Perhaps this is why I'm warned not to grab so often when I'm trying to maneuver my opponent during self defense exercises.
In other words, just being attached to someone is a vulnerable position. Right?
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Post by Colin Wee on May 14, 2006 20:47:04 GMT 8
In other words, just being attached to someone is a vulnerable position. Right? Depends what you're doing when you're attached. Striking and take downs are good. Doing nothing with the grabbing hand isn't good. Colin
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Post by Will Senn on May 24, 2006 2:20:45 GMT 8
Touching your opponent during sparring/fighting/self defense is a neutral event by itself. Only with intention or neglect does it become 'good' or 'bad'. Neglect is always, or almost always 'bad' in that you or they didn't mean to make contact - it's lazy, if nothing else. Intention, on the other hand, can be either good or bad depending. Clearly if you meant to touch someone and did, it's a good thing and if didn't it's likely a bad thing. Also, if you meant to not touch someone and didn't it's good, or if you did, it's bad. All Zen aside, why would you want to touch someone during sparring, for more than an ultra brief contact, as in a block or strike? I can think of a couple of reasons: 1. To 'know' where they are more surely than would otherwise be possible. You can tell a lot about an opponent's position and force through a questing touch - think of spock 2. To have an effect on their balance. This is where Aiki, Jujitsu and Judo really have had an impact on my art. To give a practical example - suppose someone reaches out, like, with a front jab, but they aren't really committed, they're just testing to see if I'll move my head out of the way or block or what. Well, this is a good candidate for an off-balancing action. Let the fist come, move your head out of the way, if you want. Instead of blocking, full force, simply lift your hand (and arm), as though to block, but turn the hand outward and let your little finger and palm trap their arm. Turn your hips, letting your shoulder turn with the arm - voila, they are either off balance (and therefore vulnerable to a counter strike) or they are responding to the off balancing move which is great, too. The key is to stay relaxed and balanced (physically and mentally) don't over-commit. Now, what should you do if someone is grabbing you? Well, now that's the best part Keeping in mind the previous discussion, unless they're intending to off-balance you, they will be vulnerable. If they're off-balancing you, then you will need to respond by re-establishing your balance prior to continuing. If you are advanced, you can feel free to strike during the resettlement. However, anytime you are off-balance and your opponent isn't you're really in a world of hurt. Back to the 'if they aren't off-balancing you, then they're vulnerable' comment. As Colin has said, doing nothing with the grabbing hand isn't good and you have two hands to his one. This is solid truth and you should exploit it to the fullest. Backfists and jabs along that arm are effective. Grab back - grab to the inside of the elbow and pull inward - off-balances nicely. -will
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Post by Colin Wee on May 24, 2006 13:16:13 GMT 8
Touching your opponent during sparring/fighting/self defense is a neutral event by itself. Only with intention or neglect does it become 'good' or 'bad'. Neglect is always, or almost always 'bad' in that you or they didn't mean to make contact - it's lazy, if nothing else. Intention, on the other hand, can be either good or bad depending. Clearly if you meant to touch someone and did, it's a good thing and if didn't it's likely a bad thing. Also, if you meant to not touch someone and didn't it's good, or if you did, it's bad. I see what you mean you are meaning to say I think. :-) As they have had on mine. Only when I started training in Aiki did I start to 'feel' the opponent's body and I knew better what I needed when I wanted to position them accordingly. I encourage everyone to explore this - and if you don't have the chance to take aiki for a good length of time, then add in some grabbing and controlling into your practice to see how the human body responds to shoving and pulling! :-) Colin
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Post by Colin Wee on May 24, 2006 13:18:48 GMT 8
As Colin has said, doing nothing with the grabbing hand isn't good and you have two hands to his one. Will is being really polite here ... this idea was taught to me by none other than Will's A-KaTO teacher. Colin
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Post by Colin Wee on May 24, 2006 14:10:11 GMT 8
I forgot that we're here to test our traditional resources. On my end, much of the takedowns and handlocks at the beginning part of our forms occurs at Won-hyo. Check it out at cwee.proboards29.com/index.cgi?board=katas&action=display&thread=1078132356What does Won-hyo seem say about getting grabbed? Step 1-2 seems to say to strike the grabbing hand, control and/or strike the opponent in the face, strike to the body, and perform a take down. Very aggressive indeed. Step 7 requires the practitioner to raise the side kick in response to the grab (if this is not a block or response to a strike as my former post said). A side kick raised in reaction to a grab may freak the opponent out so that he'll let go in order to deal with the impending sidekick. Step 19-20 gets you to swing out or redirect the grab before kicking the opponent with a front kick. Step 26-27 gets you to re-grab the opponent and then throw the opponent to the ground. If a person were to grab you and choose correctly to strike you whilst grabbing you, it may make sense to strike the opponent as quickly as possible then choose some variations of the above, for instance strike somewhere effectively then takedown. Or strike quickly and then threaten with a more powerful strike. If not done fast enough, then the grabbed extremity could be used as an obstacle to the opponent's oncoming strike. Colin
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Post by sifuwhite on May 24, 2006 14:27:42 GMT 8
Grabing can be a good vs evil techniques weather using it of sport or self defense. In sport grabbing your opponent can give you quick entry to complete a strike or kick, but in self defense it can work in reverse, especially if you are trying to get away.
Tim
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Post by Will Senn on May 24, 2006 21:20:00 GMT 8
Can't figure out how to quote y'alls posts, so here's my attempt:
Tim said: but in self defense it can work in reverse, especially if you are trying to get away.
Amen, brother. This is most especially true in a multiple opponent situation. If you're defending against multiple attackers, grabbing is not the best choice for the average hard style martial artist - unless they've had a huge amount of training in a throwing discipline. However, touch is still useful for knowing your opponents - just keep moving.
-will
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Post by Will Senn on May 24, 2006 21:34:10 GMT 8
Colin said: and if you don't have the chance to take aiki for a good length of time, then add in some grabbing and controlling into your practice to see how the human body responds to shoving and pulling! A really good drill for this that any artist can do is sticky/push hands (and feet, and legs, arms and body). A decent description of the concept can be found at: www.patiencetaichi.com/tai_chi_push_hands_and_wing_chun.htmA few minutes a week can radically improve a hard style beginner's (white - brown belt, say < 5 years) or intermediate's (brown belt and up, say 5 - 10 years) understanding in this area. -will
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Post by Colin Wee on May 24, 2006 22:58:12 GMT 8
Can't figure out how to quote y'alls posts, so here's my attempt: It's not an intelligent system - you've got to do it manually. The tags function like HTML, so you can mark it up yourself. Colin
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Post by Will Senn on May 25, 2006 1:18:09 GMT 8
Ah, I see... Nifty.
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Post by supergroup7 on May 25, 2006 23:35:21 GMT 8
I've been thinking about what everyone has been saying about grabbing during sparring.
Fluffy's first response to me was "Grab back. He is obviously not suppose to and if he sees the impact maybe he won't anymore. Is there a rule against it?
I've noticed through our conversations that if I was to grab back, that I should have a motive behind controlling my opponent, or in other words I need to have something planned to add with the grabbing. This is not what I experienced when I fought this gentleman. He was grabbing me, and holding.. and that was it... there was no following attack. He just held onto me and made it difficult for me to move to an angle, or away from him.
Is there a rule against grabbing in my art? I haven't been taught that it is unacceptable. We just have not done that sort of thing during class exercises. I should definately inquire about the "rules" of sparring
Thank you for all of the advice.
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