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Post by Colin Wee on Jun 29, 2006 20:12:40 GMT 8
So much wisdom, and knowledge!!! Thank you Colin!!! Thank you for your guidance, and investment into my path. I will chew over what you have handed me about breathing during sparring, and kata, and try to injest, and understand it better. THANK you! Now you're making me blush. I just tell it the way I see it. Hahhahaaha! Anyway. The takeaway to this is that practice in the dojo really is harmless. Someone takes a hit, someone gives a hit. There're few instances when someone is very much better than you and willing to bust your chops. So relax and enjoy. Don't need to try to win so much - just try not to lose too often. Colin
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mat
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Post by mat on Jul 3, 2006 13:21:13 GMT 8
Hi guys. Jumping into that discussion. Seriously, I've blogged about it a while ago, but Kenji Tokitsu made great research on kata, kata application, kumite, sparring, combat and so on. On his website, there is much talk about the flowing of Chi in a battle. I believe most articles are in french, but I could translate (it'd be a great revision) the french-only articles. I just finished the first book he wrote and it's incredible. I learned a great big lot. I've already said that kumite is my weak point. Well, my game is getting better.
He talks a lot on how to breathe, how to move and there are lots of references to Musashi's writings.
Oh! And I read something written by Sensei Jean-François Tiserre, who's really big in Europe (in karate) and there are lots of techniques for breathing in a fight that he talks about. That was a rather short text but I could translate that too.
Anyways, great subject and yes, great advice too!
It's true that kata show us the really nasty tools. Sport Kumite kind of un-do that. You look for point and end it after a hit. I have the nasty habit of jumping on my opponents. Litteraly. I'm a close-in fighter. My first impulse is often to get real close and hit/claw/bite/tear up, even if it means taking a few hits before breaking something. Not really good in kumite! LOL
anyways, let me know about those articles.
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Post by supergroup7 on Jul 6, 2006 6:31:33 GMT 8
" On his website, there is much talk about the flowing of Chi in a battle. I believe most articles are in french, but I could translate (it'd be a great revision) the french-only articles....That was a rather short text but I could translate that too."
It would be wonderful to have that resource, thank you for offering. However, I hesitate to ask you to put forth so much time, and energy towards translating these works. Most of my concern is: Will I understand what is being taught? I'm finding myself struggling to understand the basics of basics right now.
If you choose to translate these words, I will read them. But I leave the choice up to you, there is no rush. I feel that I need more experience under my belt before I can delve into deeper knowledge.
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Post by Colin Wee on Jul 6, 2006 19:57:21 GMT 8
It would be wonderful to have that resource, thank you for offering. However, I hesitate to ask you to put forth so much time, and energy towards translating these works. Most of my concern is: Will I understand what is being taught? I'm finding myself struggling to understand the basics of basics right now. Indeed it would be good. How about a summary? Colin
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mat
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Post by mat on Jul 6, 2006 22:24:10 GMT 8
Well, time, I have some. They won't be ready tomorrow, mind you. But re-reading that will be good for me. I also knew a girl who wouldn't read what was posted about feelings while doing some kata work for fear of imposing feelings upon herself. Don't get me wrong here, I'm all for self-discovery. There are no shorcuts in the arts. But there are different ways of working. What we see as advanced stuff in karate is the beginning in many arts, be it taichi or chigong. Therefore, I believe there shouldn't be a "fixed" order of things to learn. I also believe that by remaining in a "fixed" pattern or syllabus of training imposed by a style that was founded by someone who had lots of knowledge in many arts is good. There's a progression of things. BUT, by staying in a fixed syllabus, you're really following another person's path. The biggest example of this I have right now is the order of kata. In Wado-Ryu, Seishan is taught only to yudansha students. In Chito-ryu, it's taught at the orange level. In Isshin-ryu, it's taught at white belt. When did you learn hangetsu? It's the same kata. Different stages of training. Why? I have no idea... What it shows is that the original founders had different understandings of the kata (or so I believe) and taught differently about who should be practicing what. Well, it kind of remade my view of an what is considered an "advanced" kata. Advanced for some, basic to others. So, in that same order of idea, what is an advanced concept? A basic one to others. In fact, karate works that way, someone finds something and teaches it. Why not learn from what that guy found? I tend to think that by refraining from touching something, I would be following my style's syllabus greatly and probably advancing faster in that style's way of thinking. But for my self-growth, it's limitating. Because of my background in other styles. So, I touch a bit of things here and there. Without any sort of limitation. Sure, it's unorthodox, but it's my way. Or the way that found me. I have no idea where it will lead, but I know I'll learn quite a few things on the way. And hey, what do I know? I'm preparing an article on the next issue of the Chinto, our association's journal. So, I'll gladly put it out when it's over. I'll touch exactly what I've written about here. Perseverance Mat
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Post by Colin Wee on Jul 7, 2006 12:31:03 GMT 8
There are no shorcuts in the arts. Mat A kata teaches different things to white belts than it does to black belts because the student is capable of learning different things from it. The pattern of techniques is just an opportunity to discuss possibilities. The friend of yours who doesn't want someone to highlight what the kata could contain is denying herself the opportunity to learn from someone else's experience. Of course there is the case where you can see everything in a kata, and some people struggle to find a million uses for all things within the pattern - which I don't think is the way to go. I think each kata 'encourages' you to see a range of possibilities which relate to the kata at large. And these possibilities become more granular or clear as you grow in expertise. What you see however is also affected by the operator ... the user takes what he needs from the kata and this might be different from anotehr user. Colin
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mat
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Post by mat on Jul 12, 2006 23:10:59 GMT 8
I can see your point. Thanks for that. I've discussed that with the said friend and well... She has another point of view. Diversity truly is the spice of life. I guess in order to see that range of possibilities, you have to "get" the basics first. And that in itself is a huge milestone I still have to reach. Cheers.
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Post by Colin Wee on Jul 12, 2006 23:45:17 GMT 8
There are many ways to practice and to enjoy martial arts. H/ever my kata viewpoint is also influenced by my experience as an instructor. I have often asked myself, especially in recent years, how would I put together a training program for martial artists if I lived before the 20th century. This has prompted me to look at the kata as a funnel for 'other' experience to be taught whilst discussing the kata. It's a great way to have a common platform for discussion and for beginners and experts to use as a way to see what works and what doesnt.
Colin
ps - I've got the same view as your friend when I start writing about martial arts. It's better to get your thoughts down clearly first. But once I have, I make sure to go do my research as well ... it is no point thinking you are an expert on your own stuff if you've not challenged your own POV.
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mat
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Post by mat on Jul 13, 2006 2:53:44 GMT 8
Here's the first article I found. It doesn't go very far in terms of chi, the best is yet to come.
"Karate combat with “Kiseme”
by Kenji Toktisu sensei
It is necessary to acquire an enhanced sense of the space we occupy during combat in order to tell what the adversary's intentions are. We often express this through an image: turn your upper limbs into a radar scanning the field of combat. In order for the body to obtain this heightened sense, you first need to be able to sense the body itself in its entirety, and then extend sensation of the body to surrounding space. There are exercises that cultivate and develop these internal and external skills, and which also serve to strengthen the body from the inside. Examples include certain currents of Chinese Qi Gong and Japanese introspective breathing exercises. “Modern” karate is almost entirely lacking in these exercises, however, since for the most part, its practice is structured round competition and is often basically incompatible with these principles.
In any case, when facing an adversary, you sense the movement of his will through his gestures and the energy that emanates around him. When he is about to launch a tsuki against you, you sense his intention to do so before he executes the move. If you succeed in reacting against this mental movement, your action will precede his. You are ready to respond as soon as the adversary decides to attack. As for him, if he's able to sense your potential response, he'll withhold his attack because he'll realise that it's already been rendered useless. If he's not able to sense your reaction, he'll follow through with his attack and will receive your response, which most likely will be successful because it is guided by a perception that precedes that of the adversary.
If both one and the other are at a sufficiently advanced level, and if each is capable of perceiving and sensing the adversary's intentions, the match will unfold implicitly before each attack is executed. In order for this type of combat to take place, both combatants must be open to perception. If it is blocked in one of them, such a match cannot occur."
Next to come soon
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mat
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Post by mat on Jul 13, 2006 3:31:02 GMT 8
Part one translation
« KI » The key to budo practice Thoughts about the path appear spontenaously when the self-development tension is applied to martial arts and to the progression through time. In other words, as long as this tension doesn’t appear, pratice cannot contain the thought of the way and therefore cannot be constituted in Budo. In the rigorous aspect, budo cannot be described by particular disciplines, but rather by it’s quality and by the contents of said discipline. So, it isn’t because you’re seriously practicing karate-do, kendo, Jo-do, etc. that you’re practicing budo. It is when your practice incorporates the tension towards self-formation of one’s self in it’s totality, (the way), that your practice becomes budo. Budo is not a definite kind amongst various combat arts, but is the way that you involve yourself in a discipline of combat arts while searching for efficiency. Tension towards self-formation, as described earlier, does not appear in an abstract way but is based on a concrete physical sensation. It’s a physical sensation that all humans can perceive no matter their cultural origins. In other words, this physical sensation is the key that allows one to practice budo entirely while going past cultural obstacles. What is that physical sensation? In Japanese, it is defined as “ki” I believe that physical sensation (Ki) is commonly present in the human experience. But the interpretation of it differs from culture to culture. For example, the logical character is much more developed in occidental languages than in the Japanese language. But there isn’t a word in occidental languages a word equivalent to “Ki”, and it’s a major translation problem. This Japanese term covers all sensations and impressions that are mysterious, untouchable, strange, that touch something in the bottom of our being, that are probably coming from a lost or archaic acuity. This “ensemble” of impressions that can hardly be described by a word is present in the daily experience, literature, Japanese arts. When we have to name it, we say “ki”. The exclusion of these sensations and impression of the surface of the vocabulary seems to be correlated to the logical development of the occidental languages. The rational thoughts seemingly developed itself by driving back this sensibility. This is why, through practice, the sensation of KI must be capted as “ki” without trying to translate equivalent words. It seems to me that in order to have the key to budo by going past the cultural obstacles, it is necessary to cultivate one’s acuity to the sensation of “ki” and being guided high and wide by this feeling by way of the corporal techniques of combat. In Kendo, the initiate learns right from the start what is « ki ». It is done in a simple way by the expression “ki-ken-taï”. Throughout the years, he will learn the importance of “seme” for combat. “Seme” cannot be easily described. But it is clear that the level of the initiate is directly reflected by the quality of his “seme”. Generally, “seme” implies the attitudes or moves that communicate your combativité to your adversary. “Seme” is much more than simple faints used in a karate combat. Even if you use faints, if they don’t make your adversary react, they do not represent “seme”. On the other hand, “Seme” is what happens when your moves, as small as they may be, can trouble your adversary’s mind and, at an advanced level, when you can move your opponent’s mind without doing an explicit sign. When you can trouble your adversary by the “ki” emanating from your self, without an apparent move, it’s “kiseme”. That’s why it’s inaccurate to define “seme” by movement descriptions. The move of the “seme” is that which communicates something essential. If that thing is not communicated, no movement can constitute the “seme”. In other words, if that thing is communicated without an apparent movement, that transmission constitutes the “seme. That essential thing is called “ki”. -------------------------------------------------------------------
That's it for today. It's an introduction of sorts.
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mat
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Post by mat on Jul 13, 2006 4:04:39 GMT 8
Sorry for any mistakes in my english - I do my best.
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Post by Colin Wee on Jul 13, 2006 16:51:47 GMT 8
Your english is very good Mat, thank you for the post.
It seems however that the text is using Ki to describe things that would naturally develop in a martial artist - spatial awareness, depth perception, etc. I mean devoid of using ki to describe some healing or destructive energy, it seems this 'ki' is about 'feeling' the opponent in front of a person. If this is the case, then I would myself have developed this ki without any special training.
It's funny you say that the Japanese "all sensations and impressions that are mysterious, untouchable, strange, that touch something in the bottom of our being". While I am not an expert on this subject matter, it seems a chinese qigong expert would more likely describe chi/qi as a lifeforce which is not mysterious and can be touchable (or at least felt).
Colin
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mat
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Post by mat on Jul 13, 2006 21:53:38 GMT 8
Hey Colin.
Great hunch, it's exactly based on QiGong.
I know. It's only an introduction. I'll post other translated texts as I finish them. His practice is based on Chinese techniques, which he believes to be what was initially the basis of all Asian martial arts. What I like so much about it is that he blends it in his karate practice. And furthermore talks about how to integrate it in Kata and in Kumite. I'm currently reading one of his book on the subject. And sure, it's touchable. But try telling that to a down-to-earth doctor and you'll understand why he uses these terms. It's a bit like how you though of the kata teachings in the 1900... It's all about who's your audience.
I'll post about the kata part soon - After translating. The applications are clearer. This is just the beginning. Although you might find you already have those feelings yourself.
While I'm no expert, I've tried a few exercices he proposed and found that they work. I also got too confident and got hit a few times. :-) But there were instances were I "felt" the hit coming before it was launched. Each time I was going like "woah, what was that?". And the next punch hit me straight up. LOL
I also believe that he doesn't hold the "universal" truth, but I like walking a bit on his path and seeing what I can learn from someone who walked before. I'll post later two articles I really liked. Cheers! Mathieu
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Post by supergroup7 on Jul 23, 2006 10:53:29 GMT 8
When he is about to launch a tsuki against you, you sense his intention to do so before he executes the move.
But there were instances were I "felt" the hit coming before it was launched.
That happened to me once. I was walking through the kitchen, and my husband had sneaked up behind me playfully. I didn't even know that he was behind me. Something within me "felt" an intention of attack behind me, I spun on my heels, and blocked. He had thrown a medium speed punch at my direction (with total control). I had it blocked before I even realized that he was standing there. I was so happy at that moment. It was great to see the shock on his face. It reminded me so much of that Pink Panther movie scene between Kato and Inspector Clouseau. "Attack me at any time, Kato!" HA HA HA
Oh I'd love to capture that feeling again.
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Post by Colin Wee on Jul 23, 2006 15:56:35 GMT 8
I have experienced this phenomenon of being aware of the technique before it has been launched not just a few but many times. I would be very interested to understand what kind of system he uses to help the practitioner link such training to kata. In my knowledge, I have never seen Ki/Chi used in this way before or at this speed. Colin
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