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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 12, 2005 21:47:16 GMT 8
Patsai-Bassai-Balsek GM Keith Yates told me that the version of Basai, or actually Balsek that we practice is a modified Basai from the one's practiced in Shotokan schools. Checkout this update I wrote for our website, which describes some work we did on Basai: Nov 12, 2005: Since the second half of the year, we have been focusing on scenario based combat and weapons training. This has seen us practicing strikes and defences from various different postures and for various different setups like from a sitting or lying position to defence from behind and in front of a table. Last week, we had an interesting class, taking the opportunity to look at the Bassai kata for self defence applications. This was to help both the upper belts train for their requirements and for the lower belts to focus on self defence. Bassai helped us look at things such as releases from wrist grabs, foot stomps, finger/elbow breaks, and weapons evasion and capture. Unfortunately the brutality of the form was a little too much for a prospective 16yo student who was visiting us, and we overheard her remark "this isn't even funny." It certainly isn't if you think of why Bassai was was so important for the unarmed Okinawans - what with the threat they faced from Samurai and armed foreign soldiers. Checkout Shotokan Research Forum postings on Basai. Dr Bruce Clayton who's the moderator of the forum wrote the book Shotokan's Secrets, and really discusses at length the originator of the kata and what the kata was probably used for: www.beadifulthangz.com/phpnuke/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=41Checkout a related link from IAOMAS forum on kata nomenclature re: bassai iaomas1.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=Usethisboardtodiscussapplicationsformovementscontainedinpatternskataforms&action=display&thread=1121000199What I like about Basai along Dr Clayton's hypothesis of the kata is that once we have decided that the kata has to disable each attacker in 1 or 2 seconds, it is easy to pare it down to bone crunching and use it as the 'ultimate' unarmed self defence form. There are maybe one or two moves in it that don't correspond really well to what I do as a self defence instructor, but otherwise, once you fit it to the needs of martial artists, it really makes a lot of sense. Furthermore, I really hate to say this but a lot of basai seems scattered through Chang Hon katas. Basai feels a natural extension to many of the TKD patterns I am very familiar with - maybe like a precursor, like Kobudo is to Shotokan's practitioners. Colin
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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 13, 2005 20:01:13 GMT 8
Step 1 of Bassai Dai begins with the left hand closed over the right fist. It continues with the leap forward into cross-leg stance "with a very strong feeling." Using an elbow driven push upwards, the hands are released very easily from a double wrist grab. The opponent focuses on the upraised arms in disbelief while you prepare for the next move ... a leap forward into a foot stomp and a backfist into the opponent's nose. Continuing talks with Dr Clayton have talked about the possibility of using the opening moves to apply a nikkyo onto the opponent. The left hand snakes outward and then the nikkyo is applied. In this case if the hands are moved to the left, one could foribly swing the front person around so that your buddies behind you can have a shield for the principal. Then the leap forward and footstomp work in the same way.
Step 3-4 shows a hammerfist to the head region plus right scoop block. The hammer fist is aimed at the temple or delivers a forearm into the side of the neck. The opponent either blocks with his hands up to react to the move, or is knocked out by a strike to the nect. The scoop block is conveniently a finger break done by pulling on the opponent's finger and then wrenching it in a circular fashion. This works on either hand.
Step 7-8 This is a outside middle inward forearm block that travels under followed by a scoop block. I would like to think of this as a defence to a shoulder or upper forearm grab. The block is an elbow break on the same side. For cross handed grab, the strike is on the bicep or inside elbow. The scoop block can again be a finger break.
Step 9 In our style this is done in horse stance with a slow tension press shuto. Then drawn quickly to the left hip with corresponding midline punch. I advocate that this is a defence against wrist grab. The shuto goes around the grabbing hand towards the wrist and pushes off to the left. It works on both same side and cross grabs. THe pull back to hip forces the opponent to straighten the arm and allows you to drill his ribs with your Step 10 punch.
Steps 15-18 are the four KH blocks. This I teach as reactions to oncoming strikes or pushes. They can go into arm bars/elbow breaks, or irimis and resulting KH to the head.
Steps 19-20 of Bassai Dai are the curious circular motion with the hands followed by the fumi komi side-stamp kick and kiai in the middle of the kata. I exchanged emails with GM Keith Yates and he mentioned that the Okinawa katas we practice have been modified. For example the few modifications in Basai may be drawn from Bassai Dai or Bassai Sho. Or the few in Tekki may be drawn from the other two Tekkis. For Steps 19-20, we perform it this circular hand motion as a double upward X block. The original seems to look like a nikkyo wrist inward turn. In our version the X block is a nice defence against a downward stike. It is still drawn downward to the left hip, like the original, but effects a much more pronounced rotation - turning the opponents arm so that the bicep faces downward. The knee raise the low side kick? The knee raise done upwards in this case strikes the opponent on the shoulder. If the arm bar is done well this dislocated the elbow. With the dislocation the side kick can really be performed on anyone else's knee if the assumption was that there was a target rich environment.
Step 41-42 We were focusing on this move today at practice. In the kata, the leg and the shuto sweep backwards at the same time. It is more practical that there is a slight 'time phase' between the two. Meaning, I will hold on to the opponent for a little longer with the right hand whilst the leg sweeps him. The shuto helps guide the opponent to the ground - towards his weak triangulation point, controlling him, before being 'stacked up' for the next move. In the kata, the last shuto isn't done downwards. It is done at the same level. However, it is done after a small shuffle forward. What we were doing was to see this shuffle as a way to footstomp the opponent's head as he laid on the ground. So after you drop the guy with the sweep, you can slide step forward and either step on his head with the right foot (full body weight if he's close) or the left foot (lighter pressure, but the opponent landed further away). The last shuto is done to ward off any other attack, or just aimed towards the closest opponent. After the serious carnage, any small movement may get a nice flinch response (especially after the guy's buddy had his stomped on) before the bodyguard had to pull out.
Colin
Colin
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Post by sifuwhite on Nov 15, 2005 18:41:41 GMT 8
Colin,
This sounds like the Goju Bassai-dai form as well. Interesting concept that Japanese forms and Korean forms are that similar.
Tim
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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 15, 2005 21:07:29 GMT 8
The 'Goju' bassai dai? According to what I am reading off Bruce Clayton, Bassai was split into dai and sho by Itosu; one of Funakoshi's teachers (so forms a shotokan type practice). I don't know about having the Bassai dai and sho versions filtering into Goju schools. Most probably they are just doing Bassai.
As for Japanese forms and korean forms ... I think I've explained it that my form of TKD was brought to the states through a Tang Soo Do Chung Do Kwan school. This is really Korean Shotokan Karate, which ultimately adopted TKD forms when the General unified the kwans. So Balsek that we practice is pretty much Bassai. Some variations, but it's mostly the same thing.
Colin
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Post by wmioch on Nov 16, 2005 10:43:31 GMT 8
In my experience, the Dai term has been used to designate numbers in Japanese naming. For example
Gekisai Dai Ichi - Woul be approximately Gekisai Number 1
Sometimes the numbers are dropped off and the Dai left behind. I don't know enough about the Kata's history to know what happened with Bassai though.
Bill
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Post by supergroup7 on Nov 16, 2005 20:06:18 GMT 8
In my experience, the Dai term has been used to designate numbers in Japanese naming. What I've been taught, Bill, is that Dai refers to the concept of "greater", and "Sho" refers to the term "Lesser" referring to how the feeling of the techniques are focused more to a farther, or closer range of fighting. Therefore, Bassai Dai would focus on techniques applied on an opponent who is attacking at 1 1/2, to 2 stance distance, while Bassai Sho focuses on 1, to 1/2 stance distance. The term for number would be "Sono"... such as Pinan Sono Ichi, or to use a word such as "Shodan" for example, Heian Shodan. I am more than willing to be corrected on this.
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Post by wmioch on Nov 17, 2005 6:29:29 GMT 8
I've also heard No used, like Sho Shin Icho-No Kata - The First Sho Shin Kata (is what I think it roughly translates to) Here is a dictionary link which states it as an ordinal prefix www.freedict.com/onldict/onldict.php(It also lists sono "The" (as in the First like above)) But I have heard it used to refer to things being the greater version, you're right. I had forgotten about that. Dai-Katana is a large version of the Katana for example. Bill
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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 17, 2005 21:53:25 GMT 8
In my experience, the Dai term has been used to designate numbers in Japanese naming. What I've been taught, Bill, is that Dai refers to the concept of "greater", and "Sho" refers to the term "Lesser" referring to how the feeling of the techniques are focused more to a farther, or closer range of fighting. Any further thoughts on this kata? Especially in regards to your shodan testing? Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Nov 18, 2005 3:03:07 GMT 8
Any further thoughts on this kata? Especially in regards to your shodan testing?
Yes, Colin, from my experiences with Bassai Dai, I feel that it is one of the kata that challenges the karate-ka to use their balance, and movement in a totally different strategic application than the Pinan/Heian kata based on Kanku Dai. This really messes with a student who has been focusing on the power directions, and balance of the main testing kata as they rose up the rank ladder of my art form. All of a sudden you are faced with Bassai Dai, and it's strange demands. Nothing feels familiar anymore... although you recognize the techniques that you are doing, you can't seem to understand the different way in which they are being applied. No longer does the simple explanation of block/strike fit the bunkai of the kata.. suddenly you feel suspended in the air with a lack of understanding of how to use the same technique. You realize that there is a different focus happening here... and your Sensei/Sempai leave you to figure it out on your own. There is an expectation that now that you are a higher belt, you can figure out the bunkai on your own. No more free gifts of "this is why you do that.." Grappling, and self defense moves are not a strong part of Shotokan training in my part of the world for the beginning student. From 10th kyu up to 1st kyu you focus mainly on basics, and stances. It wasn't until I received some instruction in grappling, Bo work, and self defense that Bassai Dai started to reveal it's complexity to me, and I started to understand what I was doing with my hands, hips, and feet.
"Aha!" I realized "I'm not just turning here.. I'm actually doing something else!"
I have the impression that as I advance in learning I will uncover more an more moments of "Aha!" within the Bassai Dai kata.
I can appreciate even more why the Masters placed the Bassai Dai kata as the main kata for the progress of a student in the arts, and why so much time is dedicated towards learning it. Many students in my art complain because Bassai Dai is used for the 3rd, 2nd, 1st kyu, and Shodan test. "I've done the kata 1,000 times.. I'm sick of it!!!" I have heard them say. This reveals to me that they haven't figured out the complexity within the kata yet.. It is such a rich kata that 1,000 times will only barely scratch the surface of what it can teach you about yourself, and about fighting multiple opponents.
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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 18, 2005 10:15:48 GMT 8
That's an interesting revelation. I don't personally do Bassai Dai, in our style Bassai comes as a Black Belt form. However, when I learned it, it fitted in nicely with the Chang-Hon syllabus. If you take a peek into the Chang Hon discussion forum, there are times when I make comparisons between the TKD forms and Bassai. Unless you're talking about Yul-guk, many of them feel related.
It's funny you pick out grappling as a major requirement to understand Bassai Dai. I was not aware that this was a major requirement through this form. Even with Bassai I don't see a lot of grappling advocated. I see joint breaks, wrist releases, sweeps but no true grappling as in throw-lock-choke.
Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Nov 18, 2005 22:30:33 GMT 8
If you take a peek into the Chang Hon discussion forum, there are times when I make comparisons between the TKD forms and Bassai. Unless you're talking about Yul-guk, many of them feel related. Soon.. soon.. I am staying away from reading anything that will confuse me right now. Once I've achieved Black in my art.. then I'll challenge my mind to look into the vastness of martial arts complexity. What I was saying in my previous post was that I had total difficulty with the Bassai Dai kata movements up to the point where I started learning "self defense" grappling-type moves. I believe that I may have confused the readers of my post because I consider throws, locks, in the same level as joint breaks, and wrist releases. Grappling for me happens both standing up, and on the ground. I might have gotten the wrong impression...but that is what I've learned so far.
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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 22, 2005 23:09:39 GMT 8
Step 18-20 Like I said previously in my style we do an X block before the hip pull and side kick. Tonight we did an application focusing on these steps. The great thing about what I see from Basai apps is that the apps can be done when the opponent sends any hand your way. For this app, we took a straight vertical strike to the head, stopping it with an X block to the wrist. The pull back to the hip would be similar to the hand movement you see in the tradition kata - which seems like a nikkyo movement, or a wrist lock movement. The hip pull gets the opponent's COG moved forward and he starts leaning forward on the balls of his foot. You raise your knee and can either strike the elbow, tricep or ribs (dependant on what you want). Then you rotate the leg and go for a nice perpendicular side kick to the knee. Afterwards, we drop the kicking foot close past the back of the opponent's knee and fold for a shuto. This applies a scissoring pressure and the opponent is thrown onto his back. Dependant on how you apply the pressure, you can send the opponent flying sideways or into the direction of your backward shuto. If the opponent first comes with the same side vertical strike, this scissoring motion is taken over by a tenkan, which after the elbow break and side kick does the same thing - throws the person sideways or fully around to where your shuto is going in Step 20.
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Post by rmclain on Nov 23, 2005 4:13:58 GMT 8
Hi Colin,
In an earlier post, y9ou wrote, "Furthermore, I really hate to say this but a lot of basai seems scattered through Chang Hon katas. "
This makes alot of sense since Choi Hong Hi studied karate in Japan prior to returning to Korea. He created the Chang Hon forms in 1950.
I have a 1965 copy of his Taekwondo textbook. In this book, he has both the Chang Hon forms (20 at that time), plus the karate forms he learned in Japan.
R. McLain
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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 23, 2005 10:15:27 GMT 8
In an earlier post, y9ou wrote, "Furthermore, I really hate to say this but a lot of basai seems scattered through Chang Hon katas. " This makes alot of sense since Choi Hong Hi studied karate in Japan prior to returning to Korea. He created the Chang Hon forms in 1950. Yes, I have read that he was a 2nd Dan Shotokan Karate-ka and also taught Shotokan at the Y. Of course this piece of info is unverifiable. I also say "I really hate to say this" because many TKD practitioners aren't aware of this connection, Choi Hong Hi was himself anti-Japanese, and something like this may not really need to be pointed out. REALLY. Shouldn't there be 21 patterns rather than 20 there? What karate forms are listed? Has he made any changes to them at that point in time? Colin
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Post by rmclain on Nov 23, 2005 23:36:41 GMT 8
I'll check my book when I go to the school today. But, I think there were 20 listed in the book. Aren't there 24 forms in the ITF now? Seems like some were created following the publishing of this book in 1965.
Many Koreans were anti-Japanese following WWII. Heck, the Japanese occupied Korea for 36 years. It was a bad time for that generation - forced to speak Japanese, not allowed to practice their own culture (including any indiginous martial art), and generally treated like dogs.
But, the connection between the karate Choi studied and the forms he created are undeniable. No one should be ashamed of the connection, it was simply his root martial arts education and he decided to expand upon it.
One of my students achieve his 1st dan in ITF TKD a few years ago then signed up at my school. The interesting thing is when I teach him the older karate forms. He makes comments such as "This is where General Choi got the move for form X," and he shows me the same moves in the Chang Hon forms that are the same as the karate form he was learning from me.
R. McLain
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