Opening sequences are like Hwa-rang - with double open knife hand blocks. Pyung Ahn does them slowly though. Then the downward X block reminiscent of the jumping version in Toi-gye. Teacup-saucer kick looks like what we have in Yul-guk. The another open hand block strike like we have in Hwa-rang. Double block kick-punch-punch on the diagonal exactly out of Doh San (except we don't do it in a back stance). A nice grab-knee like in Hwa-rang.
Double Open Hand Blocks - I suspect this is a throw, a Komanage? If you take the first 4 moves and string them together as a continuous sequence? The elbows at the end of the sequence, I suspect are also a throw, allthough I have seen a bear hug escape the utilises this technique.
I don't think it's a Komanage, if you ask me. A komanage requires more circumfrential momentum. For this being the 4th Kata, sure, it may introduce throws or locks. If you ask me, I'll have to say that this could be a possible Sankyo in response to a restraint coming from the back of the practitioner. If you raise your hands, with elbows flared, the attacker's arms go around your shoulders. This allows you to grip the attacker's heel palm. His fingers should be pointing to the ground, and the wrist crank is applied in a corkscrew manner inwards, towards him. However, I'm a firm believer that the kata should tell you how to interpret it. Is this interpretation supported by other things in the kata? Does it teach you to do more locks? Does it teach you to deal with people grabbing you?
The timing of the beginning is faster in “P” than in “H”. Although the same movements are done, in the same order, there is a total difference in the manner, and execution of them. The stances are SO much higher in “P”.. it’s almost like a fighting stance. The kicking foot in “P” doesn’t seem to come up and chamber on the knee (as in “H”), but to go directly into the kicks from the ground. There is more of a “lightness” to the execution of his movements. In “H” you can definately see a sinking of the whole body with each techniques.. like the performer is rooting to the ground. I have to say that the performance of this kata is so much more similar to the Kyokushin Pinan Sono Yon.
1. The major difference that I saw in between the two kata is that in “P”, (That I haven’t mentioned before in the earlier threads), is that
a) The first two moves LOOK like knife hand attacks in “P”, while in “H” they have more of a blocking/ receiving motion.
b) The last two moves in “P”, knife hands in back stance, are done in 45 degree angles instead of in line (in “H”).
My feeling is that it is a throw of some kind ( no sources or evidence to back it up though) Themore I think of it the more I feel that the first 4 moves form a sequence.
And there's nothing wrong in 'feeling' the purpose at all! In fact your feeling of a particular move is pertinent to your style. Curators are supposed to 'interpret' the stlye so that it becomes accessible. Well, if you don't record and figure out what you feel about the practice ... how are you going to figure out what to communicate? :-)
If you perform it like a sankyo, it will result in a good throw of the opponent who is trying to restrain your hands from behind. Otherwise it becomes a wrist break! :-)
Last Edit: Feb 16, 2006 10:01:42 GMT 8 by Colin Wee
Nice site comparsion for throws, reminds me of a younger day.
Director and Chief Instructor in the Molum Pai Kung Fu and Keisatsu Jujutsu Systems. 34 years in the Martial Arts. Member of the Professional Karate Commission, United States Karate Do Kai, American Jujitsu Federation, Lu Tran Kung Fu Association, Recognized as a 7th Dan Aiki-jitsu, 8th Dan Molum Pai Kung Fu. I am the founder of the Molum Combat Arts Honor Society.
Here is a wild stab in the dark concerning the opening moves of Pyung ahn Sa Dan/ Heian Yondan from this little child of the arts:
Your opponent is standing north of you, not west, and is attacking with a long range weapon (like a Bo staff). He thrusts at you head high, you move into backstance thereby avoiding the thrust, and your arms come up to deflect, and entrap the weapon (Movement #1). With a sudden twist of your torso, and bringing your arms in, and around you disarm the opponent (Movement #2).
He continues fighting you empty handed.. so you go onto move #3, and 4.
Post by supergroup7 on Feb 17, 2006 22:29:12 GMT 8
Please bear with my lack of experience here, Colin.
"You ... er ... block the weapon, not his arms? "
Well.. if it's a Bo staff (which isn't sharp), and he/she is thrusting it at your head, since it is an extension of the arm, it would be easier to deflect. (I learned that farther away from the shoulders the easier to manipulate the weapon's trajectory.)
So yes, Colin, I'm thinking that you shift your head away from the target zone at the last moment (when your opponent has committed to the thrust), and when his/her arms are extended out, you deflect the Bo staff, entrap it, and spin your torso around whipping the staff out from the opponent's grip using the fact that their hands would be placed in an inadvantageous way on the staff with the thumbs being the only resistance to the power of your twist.
The general idea is to not block the weapon, but yes ... if it were a bo staff being thrust and having missed, one could easily grab the end. The only thing is that the other end may be used against you by an expert user.
Have you struck anything with a bo before? Even if it were a blunt weapon, the force created is ... unpleasant. One would need to be careful to do a move like this.
I personally would want to be much closer to the opponent, rather than stay at hitting range when he's holding a bo.
I personally would want to be much closer to the opponent
Yes, Colin.. me too! I think that this is what the kata explores also.. Movement #1, and Movement #2 are timed very slowly.
I have learned that very slow movements in a kata hint at something that should be performed at unnatural speed in reality.. so fast that you could barely see it happen.. that's why it is slowed down in kata. Also... slow moves indicate a power technique.. so it hints that what you just did had a big effect.
Therefore, the first two opening movements of this kata.. (if performed in reality) would be really fast.. then you surge in on your opponent closing the distance with that downward X block, and augmented block. (I name them "blocks" for convenience.)
If you ask me, I'll have to say that this could be a possible Sankyo in response to a restraint coming from the back of the practitioner. If you raise your hands, with elbows flared, the attacker's arms go around your shoulders. This allows you to grip the attacker's heel palm. His fingers should be pointing to the ground, and the wrist crank is applied in a corkscrew manner inwards, towards him.
Osu Colin, I was trying to explain this application of the opening moves onto another forum, and I was asked a question that I have no answer for, but I am sure that you can help me.
"I'm sorry, but I'm still unable to grasp your opening sequence to make it work. The defense against the double hand grip to the wrist/ palm as in Sankyo, is to use the opponent's body as a base, thus negating the turn, and relieving the pressure. The other arm would by now be in an ideal position to continue an attack in either a forward or backward direction.
How is the defender supposed to lock onto the arm without risking his, literal, neck?"
Would you please help me to understand all this, Colin?
Just quickly overviewing this thread, it seems that I'm suggesting the double knife hand blocks can apply a sankyo to a reverse wrist grab. The sankyo against a double wrist grab from behind is established with the raising of the arms, keeping elbows tight against body until just above elbow height, where they are flared. This results in opponent's arms behind outside and above of your hands. You use your vertical hand to grab onto the opponent's palm edge of the other hand, take his grip off and turn to face him. This creates the sankyo. From there, you are, as the other poster is saying ... using the opponent's body as a 'base' (though I've never heard it described as such) and cranking on his wrist upwards. Maybe the guy can't visualise because he's thinking of other ways to apply the lock?