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Post by supergroup7 on Dec 20, 2005 3:11:57 GMT 8
I've noticed how basics, and Kata have one way of moving your body (deep stances, chambered fists), but when you get to free style sparring, it's like you have to throw away all that you worked so hard to achieve, and enter a whole new world of movement.
Should there be a variety of kata wherein your movements echo free style fighting feel more accurately? Done in fighting stance, with little quick short arm movements instead of full blocks, and no chambering? Wherein the attack almost happens at the same time as the defensive movements? Can the traditional kata be adapted to have this free style fighting "feel"?
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Post by Colin Wee on Dec 21, 2005 8:54:03 GMT 8
I was taught that kata and form showed us parameters of movement. These are the lessons of the martial arts that then has to be applied to free-fighting. The disparity you face is a challenge to everyone learning 'traditional' karate. From the book 'Shotokan's Secrets', the disparity comes from the fact that karate was based on a system that did not always pit a person against another skilled exponent. Meaning you might be roughly grabbed by an opponent who doesn't really know what else to do after grabbing you. The kata in my mind then prepares you for a 'self defence' situation and not a free-fighting one. Saying that, the club I trained with in the states had a lot of BBs that fought very well. And the resulting focus on the kata was thus on fighting aspects - coverage, movement, and striking, that would help with free fighting. I teach kata in this way too. But I recognise that there is a divide between kata and sparring. This is why I insist that beginning students don't try to kick - that their sparring is only made of the lunge punch, the reverse punch and coverage. This helps them 'go beyond' and apply the basics in the face of difficulties. Once this happens, then something clicks and its way easier teaching them other more advance techniques. Also my entire syllabus is geared towards matching the needs of the beginning student while they learn how to spar/fight. Do I think traditional katra has to be adapted? No. There are complementary drills that can be done that help, but free-fighting does not require traditional kata to be changed. WHat needs to be changed is how you're applying each 'beautiful' technique.
Yes, in sparring you shouldn't be chambering the hand unless that chambering hand has grabbed onto your opponent's gi and you're hitting him whilst pulling him onto your fist. You should be using the chambering hand to protect your groin and your head. I would compare the chambering hand and technique deliverance to the finishing blow of karate. All others before that finishing blow require both hands to be in front of you, striking the opponent repeatedly. That's one of my lessons, the front lunge stance allows both hands to strike equally - required for unarmed combat to succeed.
What is the chambering hand? It was apparently developed by Itosu, one of Funakoshi's teachers. Funakoshi apparently thought it one of the fundamental tactics of karate, and there are pictures showing his well developed shoulder muscles - that help stabilise the punch when striking the opponent.
Having the chambering hand at your hip during sparring or fighting is like suicide to me. You open up a huge hole in your defences. I have struck a person with a punch strong enough to knock them out (or TKO them), having the chambering hand loose did not prevent me from delivering the power of a forward moving body. Like I said above though, the power gets better if you prevent the opponent from flying backwards after the first hit.
Re: full blocks? Those full blocks should be considered strikes in sparring. The fold for those blocks should be considered coverage or the blocks in themselves - that's how you develop really smooth flowing hand movements that help protect you from oncmoing strikes.
Everything in kata should be thought of as 'modules'. YOu plug and play these modules to help you cover, block, and strike.
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Post by Colin Wee on Dec 22, 2005 18:20:15 GMT 8
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Post by supergroup7 on Dec 22, 2005 22:43:43 GMT 8
the disparity comes from the fact that karate was based on a system that did not always pit a person against another skilled exponent. Meaning you might be roughly grabbed by an opponent who doesn't really know what else to do after grabbing you.
For conversation sake: This concept really makes one wonder about the "smoothness" of a modern kata. Now, I have always been told that since Karate is based on "self-defense", most kata have a block as it's first technique. I have had some experience with getting grabbed roughly, and responding in my Kyokushin dojo. There really isn't a focus on "blocking", and returning the strike.. usually you are initiating the defense even before the attacker can commit to his/her attack. The sooner that you can stop, and discourage the attack the better. I can understand now why the focus on a low stance during traditional kata, it would be to get your hips down under your attackers, and use the force of gravity against them to unbalance them.
All others before that finishing blow require both hands to be in front of you, striking the opponent repeatedly.
See? I'm wondering if one could adapt their kata to try it in this manner. Keeping both of your hands in front,( instead of chambering ), and doing it in fighting stance rather than in traditional stance. You would still do all the same techniques though. It would only be "for interest sake" to perform the kata like this. I wonder if it would open up the mind to a variety of movements possible in free-style fighting. OR is it not possible to perform the kata movements in a loose manner, and you need to have your hips below your opponents?
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Post by supergroup7 on Dec 22, 2005 22:59:20 GMT 8
Interesting article that you linked to!
I'm glad that I do not face that kind of rigorous training. Call me a wimp.. but I need to get home and be a Mom after class. I'm satisfied to be considered a "part time" martial artist.
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Post by Colin Wee on Dec 23, 2005 0:09:14 GMT 8
For conversation sake: This concept really makes one wonder about the "smoothness" of a modern kata. I'm not sure I get you here. Are you saying that sparring is smooth? And that modern kata is not? I know in fact all of my kata is suitable for much of what I have faced in sparring and what I have seen of 'real' challenges that I have unfortunately been involved with. Hmm. Self defence eh? Well, as a self defence instructor, I can tell you that most of what my self defence 'combat' requires is for the victim to strike first. And strike hard. What is self defence anyway? An armed regiment coming to Shuri Castle? Well, in that self defence situation, you don't wait till someone throws a punch at you before you do *something*. I think this is all in the interpretation. If you want it to be a block it can be. If you want it to debilitate a person it can also do that. I find that with really good coverage, you hardly need to block at all. Then I find that deflection is more preferable to blocking. I block when I want to hurt the attacker's limb or when I want to grab or throw him. The low stance really allows you to move very fast toward your attacker. Surely that would count for something? You have both hands in front of you many times during the kata. You fold for blocks and present two hands. You do an X block, you've got two hands there. Even during your punch you have two hands in front of you. This is not to mention scooping blocks. Mas Oyama said that the circular block was one of the most important techniques in Kyokushinkai. Maybe that's something to ponder? Yeah you could modify the kata to do that. But why don't you just do a drill and pick out some techniques and free-style it? If you want to work on some stuff with two hands, look at the wing chun system. Otherwise just do two separate techniques together - upper block with left and punch with right at the same time. Then transition to lower block and shuto at the same time. Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Dec 24, 2005 0:09:53 GMT 8
I'm not sure I get you here. Are you saying that sparring is smooth? And that modern kata is not? No Colin.. I'm not saying that type of concept at all. In fact, I was thinking the opposite. I may have some difficulty putting these ideas into understandable words. When I'm doing "goshin jutsu" or self defense in Kyokushin, the movements are quick, sharp, and confrontive. Yes, they are smooth, but there is a different look and "feel" to it then when I witness a kata. Kata seems smoother. Now that just may be my lack of experience talking here. There is my focus exactly.. If my mind is thinking of block/defense.. I'm going to move differently than if I'm thinking anticipitory attacking the attacker. My kata will have a more confrontive "feel" to it, rather than a backing off, and striking feel. Hmmm... Yes.. I've seen how a lower stance gives you the advantage of being able to surge quickly at your opponent. O.K... revealing more inexperience, I willingly answer " Yes, I've seen that... But.. but.. during kata you pull back your hand all the way back to your hip alot, and I find that I do not like doing that when I'm sparring. It opens up my head, and body to attack." Oh yes Colin.. it IS something to ponder. Considering how slow, bulky, and awkward it is for me to perform. It makes no sense to me why I would pull my hands all the way back to my kidneys, and up above my head to block an incoming attack from the front. I realize that I haven't grasped the significance of this movement, and that time, and experience will reveal it to me. Way above me, Colin. I'm still struggling with learning Shotokan, and Kyokushin.. I don't feel ready for Wing chun. Yet, I realize that alot of answers to my confusions lie in the chinese arts. TILT! TILT! Both at once! How? When? Where? What do I do with my hips? Where does the power go then? How can I effectively deflect, and send forth at the same time? Are we heading into the higher knowledge that I've only glimpsed at? Please be patient with me. There are some things that I know, and I understand.. but there is so much more that I am only beginning to be introduced to the idea that it exists. Sparring has always been a stumbling block for me.
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Post by Colin Wee on Dec 24, 2005 21:07:12 GMT 8
When I'm doing "goshin jutsu" or self defense in Kyokushin, the movements are quick, sharp, and confrontive. Yes, they are smooth, but there is a different look and "feel" to it then when I witness a kata. Kata seems smoother. Now that just may be my lack of experience talking here. There is my focus exactly.. If my mind is thinking of block/defense.. I'm going to move differently than if I'm thinking anticipitory attacking the attacker. My kata will have a more confrontive "feel" to it, rather than a backing off, and striking feel. You can extract anything you want from kata. But if kata was a lesson, these lessons should be teaching you something. If that something was a lesson on a 'way', a strategy, a bunch of techniques, then maybe you need to ask yourself what that kata is trying to teach you? The mindset you bring to the kata is obviously going to influence it, but that's natural, and leads one to think of the saying that 'everyone has their own karate'. You shouldn't be doing that at all in sparring. The pull back hand is great as a connective technique, as a way to add focus to one technique, but many times coverage or blocking is as important as striking (thus the saying that Karate should always begin with defence). Up above your head to block on incomnig attack from the front? You mean doing an up block because it passes in front of your head and goes in an upward direction? That's going to get your nose broken. There are other things simpler that may do a better job. Maybe. Hardly higher knowledge. I typically teach that each technique done per quadrant of your body are 'modules'. Modules are interchangeable. Some are better done in a sequence but otherwise one quadrant can perform one technique, the other another. You could be standing or lunging or going into a horse stance. You should have enough expertise now to experiment. Why don't you? We all are on the same path Mir. Colin
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Post by wmioch on Dec 27, 2005 19:12:12 GMT 8
Sorry I've been quiet guys. Moved house, working full time now, for the first time ever (and of course christmas) and my internet just came back on.
My previous teacher thought exactly what you do. He came from Seido (which came from Kyokushin). He left when his teacher thought that self defence classes should be seperate, and he thought they should be integrated (amongst other things). He did exactly what you have described. Provided a variety of kata, some of which are smoother flowing, more self-defence oriented kata, and others that are more traditional.
In particular, he created two variations of Taikyoku kata, and one variation of Pinan Sandan along the lines of what you have described.
The first two are beginners kata and feature only two different moves essentially.
The third one was designed to vary Pinan Sandan to be closer to what we actually practiced.
Also, we did not use formal stances except in Kata and some fitness/strength exercises.
I think both types have merit and their own strengths.
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Post by supergroup7 on Jan 3, 2006 23:14:19 GMT 8
The circular knife hand block that Sosai Oyama says is most important is quite confusing in that way.
This technique is usually done in a back stance. When I see the movement of my opponent's shoulder announcing that there is a punch coming, I send my two hands before my groin ahead of me in a quick set motion. With the same momentum, I pull back both hands away from my opponent raising them to my kidney level (keeping my wrists connected) almost in the same feeling as a double chamber. Next, I lift my hands over my head almost like a sideways x block.. THEN my hands disconnect from each other, my back hand lowers quickly to protect my mid section, and the other arm comes around and down to block the punch sending the power to the side, and down. One has to move REALLY, REALLY fast to catch the incoming punch. There is almost a feeling of whipping your arms rather than "blocking".
I was informed that these kinds of circular blocks are training tools to teach our body how to use deflection rather than to be used in a sparring situation.
Ha ha ha.. well.. I'm still working out the kinks in my basics right now. I guess I haven't been the kind of person to want to experiment, and venture into what is beyond my backyard until I'm sure that my house is in order.
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Post by supergroup7 on Jan 3, 2006 23:18:22 GMT 8
Also, we did not use formal stances except in Kata and some fitness/strength exercises. The way that my legs burn with the effort of doing formal stances in a deeper, and more invested way, I'm wondering if these "traditional" stances might have alot of value in just the fact that they strengthen your muscles. I know that doing kata in a deep stance brings my heartrate up almost instantly. Within 3 kata, I find myself breathing hard like I've just ran, and weight lifted at the same time.
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Post by Colin Wee on Jan 10, 2006 13:11:43 GMT 8
Also, we did not use formal stances except in Kata and some fitness/strength exercises. The way that my legs burn with the effort of doing formal stances in a deeper, and more invested way, I'm wondering if these "traditional" stances might have alot of value in just the fact that they strengthen your muscles. I know that doing kata in a deep stance brings my heartrate up almost instantly. Within 3 kata, I find myself breathing hard like I've just ran, and weight lifted at the same time. There are times when you need mobility to get to your opponent (or get out of the way). Then there are times when you need to generate force, supporting strikes with solid stances. Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Apr 13, 2006 23:22:49 GMT 8
Question:
Does a stance need to be deep, and low to be considered a solid stance?
Reason:
Some of the stances that I have learned seem to have a higher level to them, and yet they feel quite solid for the application that they are used for... Tsugi Ashi Dachi "One legged stance" is one of them. (Or Neko Ashi Dachi "Cat stance") I've noticed that I transition into the one legged stance constantly as I free style spar as I block with my shin, or send a roundhouse.
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Post by Colin Wee on Apr 14, 2006 13:27:51 GMT 8
Any stance has lines of strengths and lines of weaknesses. Any stance has an objective tied to it. Once you are familiar with this, you shouldn't overly focus on one aspect of the stance - for instance, it's 'stability.'
Colin
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