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Post by sifuwhite on Nov 15, 2005 12:24:34 GMT 8
I have found through the practice of Mantis Forms that standup grappling is a big part of the system. This allows for grabbing arms and other boby parts using various techniques from a form like bong bo, the main form of Most Praying Mantis Systems.
Tim
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Post by wmioch on Nov 15, 2005 20:10:13 GMT 8
Lots of Karate practitioners are tending to find the same thing in traditional forms when they go out and do some other martial arts.
I have heard some people say they are worried it gives some instructors a false claim that Karate includes grappling and locking. It's never been something that worries me.
I sometimes wonder how much of it are we projecting into the Kata, and how much is actually there?
Bill
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Post by supergroup7 on Nov 16, 2005 20:20:02 GMT 8
"I sometimes wonder how much of it are we projecting into the Kata, and how much is actually there?" by Bill
Oh, I have to insist that the grappling, and locking moves are definitely there.. the more that you do the kata, the more experience you have with grappling in your training, the more your body recognizes the "feeling" of grappling in the moves of your kata. I have noticed that my body can recognize some Kobudo moves within some of my kata too.
As you perform the kata, you can start recognizing the older chinese influences in the kata wherein the power flows differently than when you do the Japanese focus.. the kata starts to sing the song of it's creation to you, and you can recognize it's evolution to the point that you are doing it now, and adding your own spirit to it.
I think that it all goes back to that saying "To a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." Now if you've experienced using a hammer, saw, chisel, and screwdriver, you will be able to see more potential of a variety of ways of handling the problem.
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Post by Colin Wee on Nov 17, 2005 9:16:21 GMT 8
I'll differ to Bruce Clayton's view of kata and grappling. He says that Chinese type forms are heavy into grappling and/or control & defence. Such katas were imported and influenced Okinawa for many years. Changes to the kata were effected in order to suit the nature of the Okinawan's requirements. Thus some of the katas were eventually borrowed and modified. Some of their original application is probably still there, but their new apps were designed to fit linear type fighting. So while there may be 'grappling' type moves embedded into what we see are okinawan forms, such grappling moves may be there to extricate the user from grabs/hugs. The result will be dislocations, releases, or broken joints. I myself am very fond of aiki techniques, but in the context of my class, I usually tell my students that we study this in order to know what we don't do. Then at the end of it, we apply the soft style in a hard context ... truncating the move for a break or striking the opponent to speed the whole thing up. Some element of grappling is extremely useful and definitely should be in hard style kata, but the manner in which grapplying 'suits' hard stylist is very different from how it suits softer arts. Just a difference in style and priority. Colin
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Post by wmioch on Nov 17, 2005 10:20:15 GMT 8
I think Colin may be right. From the perspective of Okinawan kata, there is a tendency for "breaks" and escapes rather than throws and controlling locks. Of course, it depends on the version of the kata you do. I know a version of Saifa kata that has come to me from Kyokushin through to Seido through ot my teacher to me. I also know one that has come directly from the head of Goju Ryu Australia from when I was a wee boy. They are definitely the same kata, but where one has a simple sidestep and attack, the other has a framework for hip throw variations.
I know a highly repected martial arts researcher in Queensland (Hanshi Patrick McCarthy) who (amongst other things) "reverts" kata into what his research seems to indicate it was originally designed for. The results have been, from my point of view mixed. He is very much about kata being a response to a situation. My previous teacher was not impressed with his version of Tensho kata, preferring to keep our semi-medative version.
Bill
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Post by sifuwhite on Nov 18, 2005 14:10:27 GMT 8
I tend to agree about this type of philosophy on Kata/Forms. However, since I believe that forms are the essence of an art, style or system. then it needs to have an audience to maintain it. So, I wouldn't teach kata to anyone who I know won't stay around anyway.
Tim
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Post by sifuwhite on Nov 22, 2005 2:01:56 GMT 8
Every kata or Form has hidden elements attached to them, only the most senior ranks know. Sometimes, even the senior ranks have to use their brain to figure out what the translation of the techniques are in a Form/kata. However, if the student can visually see that interpretatino I believe that they will understand why Kata exists.
Tim
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