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Post by Colin Wee on Feb 9, 2006 14:36:25 GMT 8
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Post by supergroup7 on Feb 14, 2006 4:33:33 GMT 8
I'm working on the filling in the text part. :-) I'd like to have a little history of the whole "Heian", "Pi-nan", "Pyung-An" developement. I found this website that talks about Tang Soo Do, and the history of the kata. www.budget.net/~dnolan/hanthingy2.htm"The forms were first created in 1901 by Itosu Yasutsune, a Shorin-ryu Karate master on Okinawa........ His brainchildren were the Pinan Kata which were created by combination of two older forms, Kushanku (Korean: Kong Sang Koon) and Chiang Nan (Korean: Jae Nam) (or, at least, that is the oral history) . A total of five forms were created and introduced into the Okinawan public schools as instruction for children at the elementary school level. From 1905 to 1909, one form was introduced each year. Itosu, in time, would teach his art to another Okinawan, Funakoshi Ginchen, who eventually would prove to be a significant figure in the migration and modernization of Karate. Funakoshi was destined to travel to Japan and teach a version of the Pinan forms and to eventually rename them Heian. Other former students of Itosu, such as Mabuni Kenwa (founder of s***o- ryu ) , would also relocate to Japan and teach versions of the Pinan Kata. This series eventually would make its way into Korea through Koreans who studied in Japan, such as Lee Won Kuk (Chung Do Kwan), Choi Hong Hi (Oh Do Kwan), Yoon Byung In (Chang Moo Kwan), and Ho Byung Jik (Song Moo Kwan). " The gentleman who wrote the above article goes on to explain in more detail the history, and development of the kata series. I found the whole article extremely interesting. Would it be possible for someone who knows more than I to look this information over, and give some comments on it?
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Post by supergroup7 on Feb 16, 2006 5:18:13 GMT 8
I found something interesting on another martial arts forum: "Hello, There is confusion about Funakoshi, Shorin-Ryu, and the origin of Korean karate. I made it my business ti research this over the years until satisfied that the truth of what happened was clear, I will try to shed some light on this. First, Funakoshi was a teacher with strong Japanese language background. I have a copy of the meeting at which it was decided by many prominent Okinawan karate people that Funakoshi should be the man sent to bring the Okinawan arts to Japan. During his first year there at Tokyo he wrote To-Te-Jitsu, which I have in front of me, a book which depicts a simple but decidedly Okinawan system of fighting and exercise. A couple of years later the book Karate-Do Kyohan was written, and in this book Funakoshi re-created the art to suit the needs and desires of the militaristic Japanese people. I also have that book sitting here in front of me. Basically he presents a distorted view of the older system, intended as an exercise form to instill basic fighting principles and fighting spirit into young Japanese men who would later become soldiers. Later some Koreans were allowed to study Shoto-Kan at Tokyo University and some other places, among them Hong Choi, later known as General Choi. Choi studied Shoto-Kan 2 years, then traveled to a nearby University and studied an additional year and was graded to 2nd. Degree black belt in Shoto-Kan. Choi returned to Korea and opened his first Dojo/Dojang, called the Tae-Kwon. This name was similar to the name of an old Korean art that had died out over the past centuries that had been known as Tae-Kyon. I have seen the first syllabus of the Tae Kyon school, written in 1953. I have also seen the 1951 Shoto-Kan syllabus. The two books, owned by Yamazaki Sensei, were both in front of me on the same table. I turned each page and compared them; they were identical page for page but for a Korean terms sheet and a re-drawn diagrahm. The katas were the same. It was 1951 when Choi had established his school. So, having seen the evidence, TKD was Shoto-Kan and later became modified into the various other Korean arts that we see today. The philosophy that legs are stronger weapons than arms was used to create a predominantly kicking art, then later tournament adaptation all but removed blocking techniques. Most of the older application never made it into Shoto-Kan in the first place and therefore never made it into any of the Korean arts. Much has been added in the modern day after the fact. Unfortunately these are the facts. Today the WTF TKD and the ITF TKD differ, each has made many Hyungs to substitute for the original Shoto-Kan katas. Some still use the same old Hyungs that were done back in the early 1950s, generally these are the TSD people. These Hyungs almost match the Shoto-KAn katas move for move. I have video clips of all the old Hyungs, the ITF and the WTF versions here on my computer for comparative analysis. It should be noted that Shorin-Ryu is only one view of the older Okinawan arts, and that Shoto-Kan only reflects a very basic and distorted view of that one branch. Also, TKD no onger even comes close to matching its roots, which are about 55 years old today. TSD is somewhat closer to the 1951 versions of the Hyungs. Regardless there are no extant ancient Korean martial arts." www.karatekorner.com/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=31&Topic=711&srow=71&erow=80This gentleman sounds as passionate, and interested in the same thing as us. I'm wondering if he'd like to come visit here.
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Post by sbwright on Feb 16, 2006 6:57:00 GMT 8
Excellent surfing there Mir.
Yet another forum I need to visit. It astounds me as to how my organisation seems to fly under the radar. I would propose that the art I practise is very close to the original Korean Karate(ie middle of the century Shotokan), we don't learn the Chang-Hon forms only the shotokan ones with Korean names and variation.
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Post by Colin Wee on Feb 16, 2006 9:46:31 GMT 8
I'm working on the filling in the text part. :-) I'd like to have a little history of the whole "Heian", "Pi-nan", "Pyung-An" developement. I found this website that talks about Tang Soo Do, and the history of the kata. www.budget.net/~dnolan/hanthingy2.htm"The forms were first created in 1901 by Itosu Yasutsune, a Shorin-ryu Karate master on Okinawa........ His brainchildren were the Pinan Kata which were created by combination of two older forms, Kushanku (Korean: Kong Sang Koon) and Chiang Nan (Korean: Jae Nam) (or, at least, that is the oral history) . A total of five forms were created and introduced into the Okinawan public schools as instruction for children at the elementary school level. From 1905 to 1909, one form was introduced each year. Itosu, in time, would teach his art to another Okinawan, Funakoshi Ginchen, I don't necessarily know more than you Mir, and am basing this response off Dr Bruce Clayton's Secrets of Shotokan book. Itosu was significant in the organisation (and eventual teaching) of Shuri-te type arts and his efforts are reflected directly in the way we practice Karate and variants currently. Apparenly the 5 Pinans were used by Itosu to prepare the student for two forms - Bassai and Naifuanchi. Older forms left out according to your other post refers possibly to chinese influenced kata which didn't feature highly in Shorin-ryu. So the 4 Pinans Itosu created (with Pinan2 done by Matsumura) were used as an instructional set, just like how I view the first 10 of the Chang Hon forms. Colin
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Post by Colin Wee on Feb 16, 2006 9:55:25 GMT 8
So, having seen the evidence, TKD was Shoto-Kan and later became modified into the various other Korean arts that we see today. <cut> This gentleman sounds as passionate, and interested in the same thing as us. I'm wondering if he'd like to come visit here. This gentleman is passionate, but is seeing the martial arts only through a popular 'lens'. This lens establishes that a martial art is only valid because the instructor has some hidden secret that must be transmitted before the student is endowed with something that is valid. He writes like TKD and variants are an unwanted mutation with no basis in martial reality. For the record, TKD is not Shotokan Karate. TSD may be the Korean practice of Shotokan, like Sean practices. But TKD is a style based off Shotokan/TSD, has its own personality, its own idea of strategy, and style of movement. It is as relevant to modern day practice as Shotokan is. Let those who know the exact mind of Yasutsune Itosu step forward and teach Shorin-ryu and I will be the first in line to sign up. The fact is that humans are unreliable. MA instruction is unreliable. Transmission of knowledge is therefore unreliable. IN fact this is one of the reasons why this forum exists! Basing credibility only on traditional context gives people wrong ideas. Searching for context, applying base knowledge, experience, having a world view, and an inquiring mind are all important characteristics to develop practical skills and combative experience. I for one should not have any fighting skill if we accept the hypothesis that a valid martial arts occurs when an essential or valid secret knowledge is handed down to me through a credible practice. (Nothing against my first master of course). Good searching and information Mir! Colin
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Post by sbwright on Feb 16, 2006 15:02:43 GMT 8
A sad legacy of martial arts, that one way must be the only true way.
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Post by Colin Wee on Feb 16, 2006 18:42:42 GMT 8
A sad legacy of martial arts, that one way must be the only true way. That's something I try to actively campaign against. What I'm talking about is actually the idea that there has to be some kind of 'transmission' of skill between the teacher and the student. It negates the need to learn kata. It negates combat experience. But Mir - if you'd like, chat with the guy. That one post may not really reflect his personal thoughts. Certainly this forum may benefit (dependant on his background and experience). Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Feb 17, 2006 5:00:37 GMT 8
"For the record, TKD is not Shotokan Karate. TSD may be the Korean practice of Shotokan, like Sean practices. But TKD is a style based off Shotokan/TSD, has its own personality, its own idea of strategy, and style of movement. It is as relevant to modern day practice as Shotokan is."
Oh Yes.. I agree, Colin. TKD is no more Shotokan than Shotokan is Shorin Ryu. Each art developed into it's own entity as it should be. My husband once showed me the development and evolution of modern Country, and Jazz music. It's amazing how various artists have influenced each other but had created their own expressions. The same has happened with painters, for example "Renaissance art".
I would say that each style of martial art is just as relevant as the other. We can appreciate what each one has accented in their path.
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Post by supergroup7 on Feb 17, 2006 5:06:51 GMT 8
"A sad legacy of martial arts, that one way must be the only true way."
It's all perspective. It's not only in the martial arts but in every human action. There is a "right" way to drink wine, or cut the grass, or even to sit and watch t.v. These types of rules help us define what is advantageous, and what would harm us.
I believe that the main issue that happens is when we box ourselves into accepting only those things that make sense to us, and we fail to see the value of what is being presented to us. We need to open our eyes to the possiblity that there is potential goodness in all things, and that we only need to reveal it's value.
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Post by supergroup7 on Feb 17, 2006 5:08:23 GMT 8
But Mir - if you'd like, chat with the guy. That one post may not really reflect his personal thoughts. Certainly this forum may benefit (dependant on his background and experience).
Thanks Colin. I sent him an invitation.
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Post by sbwright on Jun 1, 2006 7:58:48 GMT 8
Hi Folks,
I thought I had better drop in here and let you know I was alive. It has been a harrowing three months, work health and computer related problems have kept me from you all.
On a positive note I have had the chance to train recently with a 5th Dan Shotokan instructor, a true gentleman of Karate and to discuss forms/kata. I have also been attempting to study Five Elements Boxing and 12 Animal styles from DVD.
You should see me on the boards more often.
Sean
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Post by Colin Wee on Jun 1, 2006 9:22:29 GMT 8
Say no more. Welcome to the club (health/notime/kids/etc)!
Colin
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