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Post by secretary on Dec 29, 2007 19:37:09 GMT 8
Hello! I know absolutely nothing about self-defence. Well, i suppose that is something of an exaggeration; I do know something - if self-defence is done badly in a situation then there can be a bad outcome!
My main point is this: I got into a bad situation a few weeks ago and this led me to think for the first time about learning some self-defence.
This happened: I was waiting for a lift from friend at 9 PM outside a train station. Someone walked near me and said "I can knock you out". He was speaking slurred like he was on drugs or drunk. He was saying things that made little sense. Then he started throwing his fists around in the air like he wanted a fight with me. Then he asked me if I had any drugs. Thus I had to make a decision. I decided to stay where I was and try to talk him out of doing anthing. This seemed to work and I got my lift from my friend about 5 mins later without getting into any fight at all.
I don't know whether what I did was "right". While it worked this time, I don't know what I would have done if he had actually attacked.
It all raises a number of points.
[1] Avoiding this situation . I don't often go out at night. But if I do then I have to find a good "waiting" plan. At 9PM there are very few places open. Also, it is a bad area. I could have gone to the nearby taxi rank and maybe I should have. When waiting, is it better to do so in a more lit and open/popular area like this train station? Or is it better to wait in a darker area where you are less likely to be seen? I wish that self-defence taught those kinds of things.
[2] There are so many unknowns in this real conflict; it is not a choreorgraphed thing where you know the enemy etc.
I do not know: - if the preson is acting alone or might call for backup - their mental/drug induced state. People on drugs/alcohol feel little pain and can have no inhibitions if in a fight. - what weapons the person has" syringe? Flick knife? - what degree of fighting ability the person has. - whether the ground could come into play. This was above concrete and a fall onto it could be fatal.
- what the distance is from the person. It is very hard to judge distance at night.
Hence, it is very easy to say "the person is coming towards you, just thump him". But that could lead to bad outcomes.
What would a self defence class teach someone to do here?
** As I said at the start, I am hopeless at any self-defence. If I learnt I would be unhappy with a "macho" environemnt. I would probably want a woman teaching me. [ I am male.] I think that in general most male teachers just want to show off their martial arts stuff and do not care about the student. [ this is not directed at Colin]. I don't know what I could be taught; I think that an instructor would just say after 5 mins that I am so hopeless that I should give up.
Also, I wear glasses. So I would have to do any defence in one move. Or anyone with half a brain would knock my glasses off.
Any replies would be appreciated! Andrew
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Post by supergroup7 on Jan 2, 2008 2:41:50 GMT 8
Sure.. I will offer what I can to this discussion:
First of all, in my mind, self defense starts off with being aware of one's environment, and avoiding dangerous places/people.
So in your situation:
a) You were waiting for a friend outside a train station. Do you have a cell phone? It may have been safer to wait inside the station, in a public place like a restaurant/mall, and have your friend call you when they arrive so that you aren't standing out by the street by yourself. You admit yourself that you could have gone to the nearby taxi rank. That would have been a good idea. Your goal is to be in a well-lit place that has other people nearby. I tend to think of things in a natural way. If I was a lion searching for prey, I would want it to be separate from the herd, and away from any support.
b) Awareness. When did you first notice this person who walked near you and said "I can knock you out"? When did you first notice that he was acting strange? I'm guessing it was when he was within striking distance. Self defense is centered on being aware of potential dangers before they came into fruition. Avoid the chance of danger. When waiting for your friend, keep your mind, eyes, and ears open.. not in a paranoid way, but in an alert way. You may have noticed this person swaying from side to side, and approaching your direction. I would have naturally moved to a safer place just at the sight of the presence of this person, even if it meant that my friend would have to wait for me in their car should they have arrived.
c) Let's say that you are now in a dark lonely place, and that you were distracted, and this person is now in striking range, mumbling incoherently, and threatening to strike you. Oooh... not a good place to be. You do not want to escalate the confrontation. Self defense is finding the best way out of a situation. You don't know if this guy has a bunch of friends watching to see what is going to happen. You don't know what his fighting skills are. You don't know if he has a gun, or a knife on him. However, you can set your body in a better position to react if things get nasty.
d) Ask yourself "What does this guy want?" and decide if you are willing to give it to him or not. For example, he was saying "I can knock you out..", then he switched to asking you for drugs. It is obvious that he was sporadically reacting to the moment, and that you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was randomly lost in his own mind. Quite dangerous, but once distracted, he would have forgotten all about you. He was not specifically looking to beat you up, nor to steal from you, nor to kill you, it could have happened depending on what crazy thoughts popped into his head, but that wasn't his focus. What you did was right. You talked your way out of confrontation.. in other words you used verbal skills to avoid a fight. He wanted to fight you, but you didn't want to give him that. He wanted you to provide him with drugs, and you didn't give him that either. But you were able to convince him that none of these choices were worth pursuing. Well done.
e) In any self defense moment, going to the ground is a possiblity, whether it's a concrete, wood, or grass floor, you might end up there. Learning how to fall properly so that you get the least amount of damage would be a positive addition to your skills, and would enhance your life, and safety. You never know if you might slip on something at home, and fall, so training to breakfall is a great asset.
f) "Just thump him" isn't self defense, in my opinion. If you need to thump someone, you make sure that you thump him thoroughly, and solidly so that you have a chance to run away, and that they do NOT want to get up and chase you. At the first chance that you can, you remove yourself from that area, and get to safety. If you want to show off martial arts skills, I'd suggest doing that in the dojo, in a self defense situation.. GET OUT OF THERE!
g) Yes, distances are difficult to judge in the dark without training to help you... but with training, and experience you can "feel" where you are, and where your opponent is, and how you can take advantage of the placements/ distance. I have had the wonderful opportunity to train by candlelight in a totally dark dojo, and I realized that I could hear and feel where the other people were in the room. It's not as exact an ability as when I can see them with my eyes, but I was able to sense them, and react to their positions.
Dear Secretary, you said
"As I said at the start, I am hopeless at any self-defence. If I learnt I would be unhappy with a "macho" environemnt. I would probably want a woman teaching me. [ I am male.] I think that in general most male teachers just want to show off their martial arts stuff and do not care about the student. [ this is not directed at Colin]. I don't know what I could be taught; I think that an instructor would just say after 5 mins that I am so hopeless that I should give up. "
There is so many wrong ideas in the above paragraph... No one is hopeless at self defense. You showed quite a grasp of getting yourself out of a potentially dangerous situation without having to strike anyone. The questions that this moment raised in your mind show that you are "thinking" self defense, and are on the right track. Being alert, seeing potential danger, and knowing how to avoid it is not a Macho thing. It's not a gender thing either. There are Instructors that do not care about their students out in the world, and there are Instructors that dedicate themselves to teaching their students. It is the same as any profession. There are doctors who care about their patients, and some who see their patients as just another number on the list that gives them their paycheck.
Why would you think that you are hopeless? Martial arts is for everyone, and anyone. It is not about being the strongest, or fiercest.. it's about learning a skill, and being able to use it. Anyone can do that.. You can learn how to dance, write, sing, paint, throw a ball, then you can learn how to punch, kick, throw, etc. It may take you a little more time to grasp one concept such as unbalancing your opponent than someone else, but then you might be able to understand generating power through your hips more easily than the next guy.
If an instructor gives up on teaching you after 5 minutes, I'd think that the Instructor shouldn't be teaching. There is always a chance for learning, and improving for every student.. IF the student is willing to put in the effort, and to practice.
You have a good head on your shoulders, and you have shown that you recognize the potentials of danger in this situation. It is apparent to me that you will make better choices if ever placed in this kind of thing again. This is learning self defense.
I wish you a great New Year of 2008, and success in your endeavors.
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Post by secretary on Jan 3, 2008 10:18:55 GMT 8
Thanks for the reply! That was a lot better than what I thought it would be! A lot to think about. You are right about getting a cellphone [here in Australia we call them mobile phones]. I might be the only 22 years young person without one. By coincidence a relative sent me a mobile phone last week I do not look for or provoke trouble. This is really only the second incident where it has come my way. A few years ago I was in the same[!] train station and someone spat at me and went after me. I think that I better say which station it is! Frankston Station in Victoria, Australia ;D It is at the end of a train line and as a rule of thumb they tend to be the WORST stations for trouble. I don't know why. But I think of the gang stuff in Sydney and that was at the end of their train line. If you ever live in Melbourne these are the WORST areas for violence: Frankston, Dandenong and Noble Park. I would be reluctant to walk through them at daytime. I don't live in them but it's hard with my activities to avoid passing through them. Thanks for the reply again!
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Post by Colin Wee on Jan 3, 2008 20:16:54 GMT 8
Hello! I know absolutely nothing about self-defence. Well, i suppose that is something of an exaggeration; I do know something - if self-defence is done badly in a situation then there can be a bad outcome! Self defence is as Mireille pointed out - a lot of common sense and logic to begin with. Many courses that you take would teach you interesting ways to analyse and prepare for the world, but to assimilate this knowledge and make it work for you will still take a lot of effort on your part. Sometimes gut instinct pays off. Sometimes people just don't rely on them enough, and in not trying to offend other people or draw attention to themselves, increase the probability of trouble. As for this situation, it seems your natural reaction was correct. Imagine if you gotten a little worked up - it might have turned out way differently. The two major kinds of attacks are this: 1. Snatch thefts (hit in populated areas and leave in populated areas - the main objective is speed and their loot). 2. Kidnappings or abductions (hit in populated areas and bring you to less-populated areas). Your question regarding lighted areas versus darker areas should be translated thus - is the area I am waiting a populated area or not? For instance, in a drugstore, a populated area could be front of store, and a 'private' area could be behind the counter or in the back room. So long as it is more or less secluded, the perpetrator could do you serious harm. Your objective is to leave these secluded spots and get to a 'public' area - a 7/11, a police station, a 24hr restaurant, etc. The other type of attacks you might face are unprovoked acts of violence like gang-related attacks or terrorists bombings. These do not follow the above rules, but the strategy for you to deal with this is to leave the area that has been hit. No attack from any enemy is choreographed. If you are in an unavoidable situation, you do not have to feel that self defence is a purely reactive tactic. If you are passed the point of no return, you should actively flee the situation or happily strike first in order to get away. Depends on the self defence class. Perhaps you should give yourself a little more credit before you disparage your own abilities? Both male and female instructors have their natural advantages and disadvantages when hosting a self defence class. But I would say that your opinion is mostly correct - there are a lot of martial arts instructors out there that have less-than-ideal instructional ability. But there are instructors out there that could really benefit you, and I think you should give them a chance rather than dismissing the entire lot from some initial discomfort an alpha male type gives you. Be objective oriented, my friend. Self defence is about objectives. I wear glasses too. Ever since I started martial arts 24+ years ago. Only one ... NOTHING THAT IS WORTH ANYTHING IS GOING TO BE EASY. Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Jan 3, 2008 23:46:26 GMT 8
You are welcome, secretary, I'm glad that I said some things that helped you.
I'm not fond of cell phones myself, but I can see their use in many cases. Oh.. I remember reading about a Sensei that likes to hand various daily items to his students and ask them about the self defense possibilities available. (Shotokan secrets author) He mentions that the first thing many people come up with when he hands them a cell phone is to throw the phone at their opponent instead of dailing 911. I burst out laughing when I read that because I think that I would have been one of those students.
I've lived in the part of my city that is considered the "nasty" part my whole life. I have had stabbings, shootings, etc. happen within doors of my home. Not pretty to think about, but it is reality, and can happen anywhere. Being aware, and avoiding dangerous people/places is the key to safety.
I LOVE Colin's reply! He added the fullness to the scaffolding that I started my answer with. Thank you Colin.
"Also, I wear glasses. So I would have to do any defence in one move. Or anyone with half a brain would knock my glasses off."
I wear glasses too. I considered training without them on, but I realized that if I ever had to defend myself, I would have these glasses as my handicap since they are always on my face. I know that I take my glasses off when I do grappling, or ground work. In my thoughts, they would have been knocked off by then, and since we are in close quarters, I can feel my opponent better than see him/her.
Sure.. I've had my glasses knocked to the side. Colin did that to me within a few seconds of us sparring together... :-) and yes, it is a hazard. I placed both hands up to guard my head, and at the same time pulled the glasses back into place. At the same time I tightened my abdomen in case of a middle attack, and sunk into my stance to absorb anything sent to my legs. Then, I exploded into Colin as fast as I could to discourage him from taking advantage of that moment as best as possible. Mind you, I'm sure that he had the advantage in that moment.
I still have fond memories of that quick little moment in Dallas, Colin. I swear that I'll be 99 years old, and telling my grandkids about it.
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Post by Colin Wee on Jan 4, 2008 15:17:49 GMT 8
I LOVE Colin's reply! He added the fullness to the scaffolding that I started my answer with. Thank you Colin. Thanks, Mir. Self defence has to deal with these two main types of attacks - one is for speed (eg snatch thefts) and the other is for control (eg abduction). A decision framework should be established so that the victim can be guided to do what they have to do. This is as opposed to a prescriptive check list that is too difficult to remember. It was the best I could to prevent myself getting creamed by any of your Shotokan/Kyokushin training. :-) We will expand on that session in due course, my friend. I still have a few things to share with you. Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Jan 4, 2008 21:51:22 GMT 8
"We will expand on that session in due course, my friend. I still have a few things to share with you."Hopefully, by then, I'll have a few more years of experience under my belt, and I'll have learned how to fight like a woman.
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Post by Colin Wee on Jan 4, 2008 22:27:31 GMT 8
"We will expand on that session in due course, my friend. I still have a few things to share with you."Hopefully, by then, I'll have a few more years of experience under my belt, and I'll have learned how to fight like a woman. You honour me by remembering my advice. Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Jan 11, 2008 21:30:31 GMT 8
"You honour me by remembering my advice." I cherish every moment that I spent learning from you, from Sifu White, and from the various Instructors that I met in Dallas. I carry the various things that you have shared with me in my heart as I continue on my path. Your poignant, and helpful advice were the last conversation that we had together before we parted. How could I forget them? They ring inside me every time I set myself up to spar, the problem now is finding an answer to their challenge.
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