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Post by supergroup7 on Jan 27, 2006 0:56:32 GMT 8
I was visiting another dojo, and I noticed that all of the students were lifting the heel of their support foot as they did a front kick across the floor.
I could see some advantage to this.. it did extend their reach. They were able to cross the floor in only 6 kicks, while I did a good 14 kicks to cross the floor. I do not have long legs, and I tend to stay pretty close to myself so that I do not put too much pressure on my preveiously injured right hip.
It did take them longer to send the kick out. I was able to do about two kicks in the time that they did one.
So.. now I'm curious. When doing a pattern in Tae Kwon do.. does the martial artist have to keep their heel down during a kick? When training in the dojo, do they allow their heel to pop up? What benefits, and disadvantages are there to lifting the heel?
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Post by Colin Wee on Jan 27, 2006 16:08:23 GMT 8
Yes we have to keep the heep down during patterns. No lifting of the heel during training. I don't think I can think of a time when I would stand on my tippy toes to kick anyone or anything.
The key to a controlled and powerful kick is to use the support leg to counterbalance the kicking leg. If the support leg is not drilled into the ground in an equal and opposite motion to the kicking leg, the forces will send your COG the wrong way.
Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Jan 27, 2006 21:25:48 GMT 8
What if your center of gravity is way forwards from your support foot?
These students were all stretched out when they kicked almost looking like one of those long jump athletes from track and feild.
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Post by Colin Wee on Jan 27, 2006 21:36:44 GMT 8
I could do kicks if my heel was off the floor. I could do kicks if I was in the air. Or jump spinning 360 degrees. Or if both feet are off the ground. I have done such kicks in practice and in sparring. I won't say they're wrong. I would say they're a variation off the major/basic/traditional kicks that you yourself would practice.
Using variations and departing from the set basic kicks you do requires flexibility and experience. Beginners, amateurs, and reckless fighters are oft wanting to do uncontrolled type techniques.
More experienced fighters are more conservative in their approach, guards are up, weapons are used when required. Openings are kept to a minimum. Risk exposure is measured.
Having the heel off the ground unstabilises the ankle and makes you have no defense against sweeps and knee attacks. Any strike that you get or give will also have only the tippy toes as the fulcrum. Such a kick may have reach and some interesting angles of entry, but it better be a knockout or TKO type technique. The next time anyone does this, the support leg is open season.
Legs knock people out less often. So such a kick should be used sparingly.
What does your kata teach you about this sort of kick? :-) For instance, what does Bassai teach you about kicks? Would you use such a kick with what Bassai teaches you? How do you defend against such a kick with techniques from Bassai? How would this kick be used against you if you fight the way you do?
Colin
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Post by wmioch on Jan 28, 2006 13:36:24 GMT 8
What if the kick was a driving front kick, and the heel rising is simply a product of the forward motion? A front push kick instead of a front snap kick.
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Post by Colin Wee on Jan 28, 2006 14:08:59 GMT 8
The heel rising off a driving front kick tends to rise after the optimal striking distance, where the body continues the forward motion. This is acceptable and in fact a good practice, which helps your mobility, and allows you to deliver your COG towards your opponent. I think from what Mir is saying, the heel rises whilst the kick strikes ... it is directly associated with the kicking motion, rather than the follow through motion. But a front thrust kick is driven with a lot of hip motion - it can be done whether or not the heel is off or on the ground. What happens after full extension is something else. If you decide to drop your kicking leg and move your COG forward, then the heel will definitely lift - and this is no problem at all. Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Feb 3, 2006 3:26:40 GMT 8
If one is doing a driving type of front kick (thrust/ or push being considered) One would want as much of their support foot planted down to handle the returning force of the strike on impact. In my opinion, putting your heel up in this moment would weaken your connection to the ground.
The type of kick that I was witnessing was a front snap kick using the recoil of the leg like a whip to create damage.
I think from what Mir is saying, the heel rises whilst the kick strikes ... it is directly associated with the kicking motion, rather than the follow through motion
Yes Colin, that's what was happening.
a) The students would step forwards with their feet flat on the ground in front stance,
b) then as their back kicking leg rose, so did the heel of their support foot..
c) The kicking leg knee would go in front of them, not up, but forwards.
d) then they would stretch out really long, looking like greyhounds
e) their kicking foot would go forward, and back, the whole time their forward momentum is what is keeping them up in the air,
f) and they'd land in stance.
I'm just wondering what the benefits, and problems in this kind of movement.
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Post by Colin Wee on Feb 3, 2006 11:46:21 GMT 8
I'm just wondering what the benefits, and problems in this kind of movement. You mean aside from looking like greyhounds? :-) Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Feb 24, 2006 0:10:10 GMT 8
I did a little research to find some reasons why lifting the heel would be a positive thing. I found some NEAT information! a) "Lifting your heel up toward your calf will relieve the pull on your tendon." www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_5/196.shtmlAH! One of the benefits of lifting your heel is that you place less stress on the back calf muscles, and achilles tendon. (By the way, this website contains tons of self help information for lower leg problems such as shin splints, tendonitis, and mid calf pain.) So, if you are having problems relaxing into the movement of your kick by keeping your foot flat, perhaps lifting the heel could help. b) Lifting the heel allows for quicker rotation of the hip. I found this on a wood carving site "Generally, you will get a more comfortable stance, with less torsion applied to the board, if you have heel lift on the rear binding. The more you use upper-body rotation, the more heel lift you need." www.alpinecarving.com/binding_setup.htmlHey.. stance is stance.. ha ha ha.. I don't mind learning from the wisdom of other arts... including wood carving. Maybe lifting the heel of the support foot allows a Karate artist a quicker rotation? In this case you would be willing to sacrifice the solidity of a flat foot for the speed. As for me.. I think that I'm going to keep my support foot on the ground. I like feeling grounded when I strike my target.
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Post by Colin Wee on Feb 24, 2006 9:06:41 GMT 8
b) Lifting the heel allows for quicker rotation of the hip. I do this ALL the time. But you won't be able to actually see it happen given that it's really 'skimming' the ground, rather than a real lift off. But when that other foot strikes the target, the support foot is firmly back down. Of course when you get the timing wrong, this doesn't always happen the way you want. :-) Colin
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Post by Colin Wee on Feb 24, 2006 9:23:33 GMT 8
a) "Lifting your heel up toward your calf will relieve the pull on your tendon." www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_5/196.shtmlAH! One of the benefits of lifting your heel is that you place less stress on the back calf muscles, and achilles tendon. (By the way, this website contains tons of self help information for lower leg problems such as shin splints, tendonitis, and mid calf pain.) So, if you are having problems relaxing into the movement of your kick by keeping your foot flat, perhaps lifting the heel could help. Er, Mir ... that's a running site! I don't think lifting the heel whilst kicking will result in calf relaxation. If you ask me it'll reduce the rotational torque in the knee, but that's a separate problem. Colin
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Post by supergroup7 on Feb 25, 2006 22:39:21 GMT 8
Er, Mir ... that's a running site!
Well... I was surfing for information about lifting the heel on the net. While I preferred sites for martial arts as a base.. All that I could find was information about NOT lifting the heel. I was hoping to find some reason why one would want to lift one's heel while kicking. I was trying to see the issue from more than one angle, in fact I was playing Devil's advocate with myself, and trying to prove that there are some positive reasons for the action. Therefore I started looking at all sorts of different arts. I learned something from the wood carving site.. that lifting the heel will release the hip. I've felt that as I was sparring.. by lifting my back heel I could send a reverse punch towards my opponent with more ease, AND I could reach farther.
The running site does have alot of good information about handling lower leg pain issues.. I wish that I had known all of that when I was suffering from shin splints 3 years ago.
Perhaps lifting the heel will relax the calf muscle when in a static position.. like when you are stretching against the wall.. but does not help you relax if you are in motion.
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Post by Colin Wee on Feb 26, 2006 21:13:46 GMT 8
Fair enough. We should all be open to possibilities.
Colin
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Post by sbwright on Feb 27, 2006 8:14:43 GMT 8
I can see absolutely no advantage to kicking with the heel of the supporting foot off the ground. Skimming or allowing the foot to turn out yes(it allows more movement in the hips = greater reach). Lifting the heel off the gound while kicking usually results in lifting foot off floor and replacing it with backside.
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Post by supergroup7 on Mar 1, 2006 21:14:37 GMT 8
"Lifting the heel off the gound while kicking usually results in lifting foot off floor and replacing it with backside"
Yes.. this has been the experience that I've quickly learned.. I didn't have to experience it too often before I decided to keep my feet firmly planted.
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