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Post by Guro Cory on Jan 9, 2007 2:30:32 GMT 8
Hello all.. i have a very interesting question...
I've been in the arts along time... 22yrs to be exact.. and you know its sad that many people do not find out about the importance of kata right off hand.... Its always been somewhat a "secret" or a "Taboo" type thing only handed down to the chosen few so to speak... If you had a sensei that taught you Kata they only focus on one or two things of importance within Kata...
When i was in Karate while going up the ranks in my younger years.. i went to a very good martial arts school... In fact i give alot of my credit to this dojo and the sensei there... However, one thing we didn't emphasise alot on was the importance of and the explanation of KATA (bunkai)
We were a typical "SPORT" oriented or Tournament grounded school... we were taught kata in the form that would only be acceptable for competion... ie. Fast, Hard, Precise, and Technical movements, breathing was taught as it should of been... but one thing i noticed was we never touched on BUNKAI.. i mean we could run a kata like there was no tomorrow.. it was beautiful when our school karate ka would run kata... I was state and national kata champion from 1987-1989... our school was State Champion Karate dojo for several years in a row.. we were just a great example of a school back then... (now not to brag or boast) because heres my delima.. Although we could run a kata with the best of them, we had no understanding of what we were doing.. we ran kata only for the inspiration of winning 1st place.. that was IT.....
Now here it is many years later and you know what? I only started to understand KATA and its true meaning about many 5 years ago... and i'll be honest there is still much of it that i don't understand and I'll admit it.. to me Kata and the bunkai is a lifetime of mastery and understanding to be a true master of what kata is..I have a greater knowledge now then i did back then though..
Okay heres my delima #2 and my question...
Today, as i teach my students we teach kata however, in the Karate School im a part of now.. (same lineage of karate, just a different mindset.) The owning sensei is not big into Tournaments and or doesnt really push and or require the students to go to tournaments.. in fact we just don't really do them.. Am i okay with that? YES and NO! I understand the importance to Competition and why however as im older now my focus on kata is much different..
But one thing that im finding is.. i think i expect more out of our students while doing kata because of how i was taught them... But its not mandatory for any of our students to really run KATA hard, and all pretty and precise and well i guess i would consider it perfect or next to perfect as it was when i was expected to run a kata...Its just not really as explosive or pushed at this school im a part of now as it was when i was growing up in the ranks..
One of my concerns is were having a Black Belt promotion coming up in a month or so.. and the guys going up are all well deserving for the opportunity don't get me wrong.. but they are lacking in the area of KATA... and im a firm believer that KATA is the key or the explanation of what each system is.. its the element that makes each system stand alone and be recognized for what it is... Does this make sense?
So i guess what im trying to say is.. am i reading too much into this? Should it bother me that these guys don't really run their kata with much heart? However on the same note they can break down and show BUNKAI of a form and can at least understand kata for what it is.. (which is something i could not do at their level when i was there...) so i guess its an even trade off..
Im just a bit confused with myself and what i really should expect for this upcoming BB promotion.. i don't know if i can handle them for what i call it "halfing" or for lack of better terminology "half assing" the kata when they are going up for a black belt... but i know with great confidence if i ask them to take any particular movement from any kata and ask them to explain it to me, they can show me bunkai from it... i would even hesitate to note if I were to ask them about Pressure Point locations and Meridian line, and the difference between a north and south polor point and what points and meridians are applicable and vulnerable to attack and why they could explain it well.....
But when they run the kata it will be slow, not well performed, etc... And from my perspective if I were a "visitor" or an outside instructor to come sit in on the board i'd be alittle embarrassed to see them run a kata or a high rank kata like a beginer..
DID i ramble on there too much? Or did i actually make any sense of this?
Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated...
(Sits back and patiently awaits his lashings)
Guro Cory
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Post by Colin Wee on Jan 9, 2007 12:36:47 GMT 8
Dear Guro Cory,
No lashings here for you. Keep your fantasies to yourself. :-)
All Schools are Different The first thing to point out is that all schools have their own agenda and practice what they want to or like to. There are so many layers to the martial arts - and many people nowadays have the luxury to 'specialise' in a subset of their own style. This does not make what they do better or worse. What you need to decide on is whether or not you are gaining positively for the amount of hours you spend in this outfit.
Kata: 'Before' From my readings and research, kata was put together to capture the essence of some fighting form. The kata would help the practitioners 'remember' techniques. Further to this I believe that the kata allowed teachers and students to 'test' these techniques and explore variations and practical applications. In addition to this, practitioners seem to practice only a few kata at any one time; and they would practice their kata at a much more deliberate pace to how modern practitioners would "run" through theirs. Old practitioners of kata would also have their fighting style match techniques and combinations within the kata more closely.
Kata: 'After' Nowadays, kata and sparring don't seem to ring the same bell. And why should they? The techniques contained in kata KILL and HURT. The techniques in sparring do not. More martial art schools are focused around sport based sparring. Drills are done to improve fitness and efficiency. Self defence routines are not even drawn from what you see in Kata. Kata just does not enjoy a primary role in the martial arts syllabus.
Culture From what you say, it seems that you have recognised that there is an area of deficiency which you think can be improved upon. You also seem at a quandary as to how to act on your beliefs. This is a major obstacle you will find at most martial art schools. There are trends set by a few that remain unquestioned and unassailable. You might even feel you're being antagonistic by pointing this out to the chief instructor. This is understandable, but where does that leave you? Well, you can try to explore other areas where there is more latitude for you to move. Would the instructor benefit from newsletter or article submissions? Or would you like to suggest starting up a video project for kata (because you'd like to volunteer to lead it)? Or maybe you'd like to volunteer to help black belt candidates out on their kata? The great way to approach it is as a person who is really passionate about your stuff, talking about how you seen really good stuff done, and wanting to share some of the things you like. The worse is to say that the way they're doing things is WRONG. Worst still - that their kata S U C K S. Or maybe pull them into a TMAC forum you set up to discuss the katas you perform? I am happy to establish a board no this forum specifically for your school, if you like.
Walk the Walk If you think kata is so important that you need to lead these people out of their current state, then make its importance known. If people ask you something, frame your answer to draw their attention to kata. If you're doing a drill, draw it straight from the kata ... and bring their attention to it. Kick and pucnh combinations can be drawn straight from kata too - then create variations and explain why these work. If the kata wants the practitioner to do something in a specific way, then this specific way should also be somewhat apparent in variations. This might spur students to refocus on how they do kata. Jolt them out of their nonchalence.
Why ask Why You might train in a large school, but the fact is that each and every person in Martial Arts walks a lonely path. How many reps can you do. How much pain can you tolerate. How much time can you spend thinking about the art. What have you decided to practice - traditional or sport. In the end, there will always be disagreement (not always bad) about what people want. When they don't face life and death issues on a day to day basis, this is alright. It is not your responsibility to change the world. Or if you do decide to, start with yourself. This is not to tell you to keep to your own business, this is to tell you that sometimes you might just face disappointment if you are faced with a strong culture. Bonus points to you if you do manage to improve it.
You didn't really frame any specific questions, but I hope my response helps.
Colin
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Post by Guro Cory on Jan 9, 2007 21:49:40 GMT 8
Collin:
Hi and good day to you sir.
Wow that was a very in depth response.. I guess maybe perhaps I didn't quite explain what it was i was trying to get out in my original post.. or perhaps I totally missed my own point.. Let me see if i can sum this up without sounding like im hammering my guys... Because its not that at all..
First off let me explain my position in this Karate School of which i attend and or am a part of.
The head instructor is a very genuine and nice guy... He has good heart and means well.. And all though i don't want to sound as if im bashing him, because Im not.. I respect him well..
My original Sensei and Him actually went up the ranks together under the same Instructor... So when i came to Renshi's school / dojo it was the closest that i could find that had the same infrastructure as my original dojo from when i was coming up.. ANd Renshi is a very reputable teacher in this area...
Heres' my delima.... There are a total of 3 guys going up for thier black belts in Feb. Of the three guys I feel that personally now, 1 of them is ready...I have been confronted by one of the other guys who is also a student of mine who cross trains in the FMA....And he has confided in me that he does not feel that he is ready at all.. so i had told him that i would spend a couple of hours a week for the next 6weeks to get him ready.... His performance of kata are not what id say is up to par for that of black belt standard.. NOW let me explain this....i say this with all do respect to him.. and in fact i have told him this so nothing that is being said here is nothing i've not made known to anyone themselves.
If i sound like im boasting or am errogant, then so be it.. But i tend to relate "MY TRAINING" to that of what i see today....I paid my training in blood, sweat, and tears. And i've been told by 2 of the 3 brown belts going up the ranks they wish that our (current school) was as hard as what i explained ours was back in the day... I have talked to Renshi about this and he said he used to run his dojo in that manner but there were too many injuries back then and don't want to have the same.. to me i understand that .. but on the other hand many students wish to still train that way...
As a teacher myself i have found it hard to follow along the same footsteps of my mentors.. however, i do try to pass along the same training that i recieved...
Anyway to stop most the rambling here... last night i spent 2 hours w/ the brown belts and ran them through a hard work out and training classs... in fact not to just drill them i too worked out right along side of them... doing the same thing that i asked of them to do.. so i didnt use my rank to make them feel lesser then me... this is just how i do things..... i feel if im going to make someone do something.. then i should be able to show that i too can do the same.. thats a motivator for them i feel...
I asked Renshi if i could spend the next 6 weeks with the brown belts to get them ready...he was very excited that I volunteered to do this... i feel these guys deserve the best shot at training as anyone else.. so in the next 6 weeks they are going to be pushed to the max and all the while I and my best friend and co-instructor Mr. Barlow (who went up the ranks together under our original sensei) are going to whip these guys into shape....
HERES our PLAN for the next 6weeks.
at the top of the 1st hour: for 30 mins we drilled plyometrics, pushups, sit ups, windsprints 1/2 court (gym)... jog 1/2 mile around gymnasium, 20 HARD KICKS of every kick we teach..
last half hour (30mins) we will drill KATA, brushing up all the things that i see needs to be worked on..
Take a 10 min break between next hour workout...
Top of 2nd hour Approx. 20 to 30mins of extreme workout (excersise, run, pushups, situps, jumping jacks, SPARRING DRILLS , 100#lbs heavy bag workout... last 20mins- FULL CONTACT SPARRING..
this is my method to help these guys out for their black belt promotion...
i think if we do this 2 days a week for the next 6 weeks they will be ready... I know after last night the confidence level of these 3 guys were already raised. We were all beat tired after the end of the 2 hours but we felt like we actually accomplished something...Not that we don't accomplish anything ever in class.. I agree with alot of the brown belts that they have been expected to get themselves ready for thier black belts... Where i feel that is our responsibility of holding a black belt to help those that are going for the rank.. we are there for aservice to these people that put thier time in coming to class to learn and train, and we should help them achieve thier goals...
Cory
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Post by supergroup7 on Jan 10, 2007 2:26:37 GMT 8
Ooo... I'm becoming inundated with all of the information, and drowning in thoughts, so let me bring it all down to what I think I heard:
a) 3 brown belts are going up for their Shodan test, and their kata is weak in performance, however they do have adequate knowledge of a few of the bunkai available in their kata.
b) Sensei Cory is asking himself how he stands on the issue above. He is looking at his past experience, his present understanding, and his future goals to establish whether or not to allow the 3 brown belts to test for Shodan.
Have I understood correctly?
My suggestion to you, Sensei Cory, would be to ask yourself how much you weigh each aspect of the arts in your dojo. These higher belts will be forwarding a message to the lower belts when they train in your dojo. This message should echo what you teach as important. I think that you feel that the performance of their kata is not the message that you want sent to the other students. This is the impression that I received from this statement if I were a "visitor" or an outside instructor to come sit in on the board i'd be alittle embarrassed to see them run a kata or a high rank kata like a beginer
I get the impression that you would like your higher belts to have more spirit in their kata, rather than to "look good" in their techniques. Perhaps I could describe it as you'd like the kata to be alive, and for that special energy and focus to be present rather than the kata looking like a bunch of techniques strung together. This comes from creating "Kata no chi" ( "Kata is your blood") as my former Sensei fondly told me. You no longer just "do" the kata, it becomes you.
Your question was Should it bother me that these guys don't really run their kata with much heart? This question has already been answered by the fact that you ARE bothered enough to write out your thoughts onto this forum, and to ask yourself questions. It is obvious that you are bothered by the fact that their kata does not have heart. This tells me that "having heart" in a kata is something that you value in a student's performance. It is also obvious that you value the fact that a student should know bunkai also.
What I've noticed, Sensei Cory, is that a good student imitates the teacher. I would say that the brown belt students need to witness you performing your kata with heart.. that is how I saw, and embraced the goal that I wanted to reach in my training. My Sensei commanded us to work on our testing kata on our own, and then he started doing the low level beginner kata himself working his way up to the higher levels. I was "doing" my kata as commanded, but I was watching Sensei as much as I could without being obvious. I became entranced .. I saw how his kata was so different from mine. I saw how it came alive in him.. and I desired to have what he was showing me. We were doing the same kata.. but his was so "right!". I hungered for that in my karate.. and I'm still working towards it.
Sorry.. I do not have any lashings for you either. I think that you are a wonderful Sensei for being open to looking at new pathways, and asking yourself questions so that you can provide the best for your students. I hope that my words have been helpful.
Mireille
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Post by Guro Cory on Jan 10, 2007 4:42:41 GMT 8
YES, YES, YES!!!!!!!!!!!! Supergroup you have my complete attention... you are exactly right.. You hit the nail on the head so to speak.. That is exactly what i am trying to say... And although i could not find the correct message or the correct logical sense to get it accross in words.. you managed to figure out exactly what i am saying... KUDOS!!!!!!
Yes, and to help you further understand... i do run "our" kata each time initially for them.. Showing and Sharing with them how i was taught to run it, and how i feel this makes the kata that much more intense and meaningful.... Kata is such a diverse discussion because everyone sees kata differently... In fact i most of the time totally elude the whole kata subject all together... Mainly because everyone interpretation is different and rightfully so. HOWEVER with that in mind, if im teaching someone, anyone be it 1 or 100 students although each student is an individual and each has their own way to do a kata.. i want them to grasp and at least carry on the same way that it was passed along to me... I just want whats best for my students. I have worked hard to not only maintain a credible name and positive influence on my students and those karateka that are around me continually. Karate or martial arts in general is a way of life for me... I walk it, talk it, live it and breathe it... and my heart and soul drives my existence in the arts... In fact it has somewhat over consumed my life in the past several years... Am i sorry for that? NO! because its the path that i have chosen. Does this mean each and every person who comes into contact with me to study will be the same as me? NO and i don't want them to be me.. but a reflection of me is acceptable.... I have a general impression and i have a set standard as to what and how a Black Belt should uphold themselves and should perform.. And i wont accept anything less if my name is going to be signed on thier certificate for SHODAN... I made the mistake once to let someone skate by during a shodan test and he later made a mockery of me as his teacher and i still hear discouraging things about this individual and his poor performance. Each person who studies under us in the arts, reflects us as a teacher. Is it right? Maybe so but nonetheless if you have ever walked into a school be it a good strong DOJO or a McDojo so to speak and you see high rank students clowning off, no discipline and really poor technique what does that make you think of the school or teacher? Although he may be a very reputable and excellent teacher.. No matter what his students reflects him. I just have this imagary i guess that i want whats best for my studnets...I want them to be able to perform at the best of thier ability. And if they say its thier best then i make them do better then what they think is the best.. Its just motivation.
Although NONE of these 3 brown belts are "MY PERSONAL" students they are RENSHI students as am I. So i take great pride in not only helping him maintain a great image in his school and students. For I reflect him as anyone under my rank reflect me.
2 of the 3 brown belts are however training under me privatly learning KALI.. And although it is a different ball game, they are still young in this art. But since they have trained in this system it has only helped thier KARATE in so many ways...I have seen a tremendous increase in confidence, skill and precision in thier training. As for "fighters" they are great. Kali does not perse have KATA or FORMS.. we have what is called "Carenza" which is a form of (shadow boxing) which is a self performed series of movements much like a kata with no specific premade movements. Which is very soft and fluid.. Unlike a hard system like Karate.
NOW, in retrospect here. Kata has many ways of interpretation
1)Soft, slow, movements.. *run kata at 1/4 to 1/2 speed to gain knowledge/learn the kata 2) HIGH TENSION movements ie. (Resistance training-Breathing excersises) 3) BUNKAI 4) EXPLOSIVE or ALIVE
i have all 3 categories with the 3 kyu's except the 4th one... But mark my word by the end of the 6th week.. by promotion they will have that concept down...its just something we have failed to work on in class and make it concrete with them...
Mostly the 4 "explosive and alive" form is usually taught and seen moreso throughout COMPETITION... And since Renshi does not attend or support tournament or competition that often the 4th way is not really touched on in class...
Again thank you for understanding my position here. I only want what is best for those that train under us.
To me there is still a great honor and sense of PRIDE that comes with obtaining or earning your shodan.. many schools have lost that initial sense of pride i think.. it has become a "MONEY MAKING" scheme for some...
When the point comes that i dont' care how my students perform or turn out... then i will retire as a teacher...
hope all has a great week.
Cory
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Post by supergroup7 on Jan 13, 2007 13:07:10 GMT 8
Looks like you've answered your own questions, Sensei Cory. If we have helped you to think it over, then I'm glad.
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