|
Post by Ron Goninan on Mar 29, 2006 18:18:07 GMT 8
How important is Rank and Title to you and your school/style and its operations or position within the martial arts?
Let us know your answers and why you think the way you do!
|
|
|
Post by Colin Wee on Mar 29, 2006 20:16:13 GMT 8
Not very important. I think for me the most important thing is whether you're a black belt or not (at least for the style I'm in). I stayed at 1st dan for at least 10 years while moving countries and systems. I would not do anything differently if I remained at 1st dan or if I had been promoted like I have. My group is small, my practice progresses as I like, and I work us all hard. I'm not part of a large MA organisation and promotions don't mean that much. Of course I'm proud to hold the rank I hold, but it doesn't change anything for me. Colin
|
|
|
Post by supergroup7 on Mar 29, 2006 21:52:36 GMT 8
I do not allow rank and title to affect how I treat people. I give the same amount of respect to a 5 year old white belt student as I do a 10th Dan. Why? because both are just as valuable to the future of the arts.
As for me, now that I have achieved Shodan.. I feel ready to start walking my journey in the arts instead of crawling, and feeling my way over the path. I do not have any desires to climb up the rank ladder as I travel, but if such a thing happens I will accept it, and the responsibilities attached to it.
|
|
|
Post by supergroup7 on Mar 29, 2006 21:55:59 GMT 8
I answered how important rank and title is to me, but I neglected to answer how important it is for my school/style.
I feel that rank/title has great impact on my schools/styles. The person with the higher Dan grade is deferred to when conflicts, or questions arise. This helps to keep the large organizations running more smoothly. ( However, politics do raise problems once in awhile when incongruencies, or favoritism occurs.)
|
|
|
Post by Ron Goninan on Apr 2, 2006 15:45:29 GMT 8
My views on rank and titles is that they are detrimental to the study of the arts. Far too often I have seen the ego give raise to rank and title and the arts suffer because of this.
|
|
|
Post by Colin Wee on Apr 3, 2006 8:04:01 GMT 8
My views on rank and titles is that they are detrimental to the study of the arts. Far too often I have seen the ego give raise to rank and title and the arts suffer because of this. On a basic instructional level however I view rank as a very convenient way to structure lessons. Also I've seen instances where rank could promote greater safety. Upper belts hold back more when sparring with lower belts ... and for good reason! Colin
|
|
|
Post by GM-Neal on Apr 7, 2006 7:40:06 GMT 8
For the most part rank is a good way to place Students, (We are all still Students). even in the Chinese systems a student is placed on the Knowledge they Hold. It was setup and based on the grade 1st 2ND 3rd (Elementary) 9th 10th - 10Th Grade (High School). in any thing your ego can (If you let it) get in the way. a 10Th Grader is going to think he is better than a 9Th grader, (all so Know More). so do not blame the Rank, Blame the Person. if a Man has a ego he can have it on any level from white belt up (Or no belt for that matter). Is it important I would say NO, Take my belt, take my Certificates, you can Not take my Knowledge.
Mike.. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Ron Goninan on Apr 9, 2006 9:31:50 GMT 8
As stated, I personally am not one for ranks and titles as in the past 34 years involvement within the general martial arts scene I have seem them abuised to the extreme. There are in my opinion far to many "Masters" and "Grandmasters" out there. Whatever happened to simply being a teacher? Why does one have to be higher or more important than another? Why the ego of ever-increasing and self-aggrandizing titles?
|
|
|
Post by GM-Neal on Apr 9, 2006 11:55:47 GMT 8
There is one thing that is true there are Way, Way too many Masters & Grandmaster out there today. It seems like every one that steps off the Plane from a Asian Land is all of a sudden a "Master" or "Grandmaster" when they left they were just a San-Dan?. I think the US Made this happen. It seems like the more important you make "Your Self" the More people are going to look at you and you can make more $$$$$. The US has to See a Big Certificate On the wall of your School. The Students see a teacher a school (A) is a San-Dan in School (B) the teacher is a "Master" Go-Dan or above Now tell me who do you think will get the most students. And that San-Dan most likely a better Teacher than that "Master". See Ron I see your Point only too well and do for the Most part Agree. My self i wish we would Get Rid of the Ranking System all together that way we would all be on the same Level. But it is just not going to happen. There is and all ways will be too many "Big Egos" . I keep all my students Egos way down, for one when they get to Sho-Dan I tell them Now they are ready to start learning. I like when i work out Not to even wear a Belt, Just a T-Shirt and like GI Bottoms. I too am very Passionate about this, it does make me so, so, mad that to day it seems like every time you pick up a Martial arts Mag, That you see these Masters and grandmaster, and i say to myself where did all the Sho-Dans Go. Most of which i think are better than some so called "Masters", and way too young, to even master there own lives(Which to a point is a requirement of being a Master), much less be a "Master" Of a Art. It to me is a Big Insult to the True Masters. So that is my $0.2 Worth ;D So Ron My Friend, I really do Agree.
|
|
|
Post by Ron Goninan on Apr 9, 2006 16:47:19 GMT 8
Mike, I did not say you did not agree I was just expressing an opinion that really was not directed at any one individual, their art or association. It is easy to drop the whole rank system if one wishes to do so. Jusst because other martial arts use ranks and titles does not mean we all have to. I have does this quite successfully and have had no issues or concerns from my students or other groups as they understand where it is I am coming from. I exist for the art not the embroidery that may or may not surround it. My critics unfortunately, are still wrapped in their belts and titles unable to see the forest for the trees. Their ranks and titles cosume all that they do. It is so sad to see this happening but it is a sad reflection of the way in which they promote their arts.
|
|
|
Post by GM-Neal on Apr 10, 2006 7:55:19 GMT 8
Yes, Ron I totally under stand. it would be great to drop the hole rank thing, but i am afraid that as long as we do have those, that are hung up on ranks and title, it is going to stay. even in my system, if i was to drop the Ranks, I would most likely have a up raising. Every one has got used to them. As i teach in Life, "do not start something that you are not, going to continue doing" if you do someone will get mad. (i.e. In a Marriage if the man & woman start something, say washing each others back) if one of them stops it, then the other one is going to think that something is wrong, and get mad. It would be better not doing it at all. (Like having ranks). like you have, every one knows about it, and because they do, and they know that every one is on the same page, every thing is fine. so i do applaud you on that.
|
|
|
Post by supergroup7 on Apr 13, 2006 23:04:26 GMT 8
It would be better not doing it at all. (Like having ranks). like you have, every one knows about it, and because they do, and they know that every one is on the same page, every thing is fine
If I understand you properly, Grandmaster Neal, you are suggesting that the best way of removing ranks is for someone to found their own school that contains no ranks from the very beginning of training there. This would be similar to what Ron did at his White Crane school. Therefore all the students would walk in acknowledging that they accept the fact that Black belt will not be a goal for them, but that they are learning to learn.
I agree with you that it would be difficult to expect large organizations that revolve around the rank ladders, and testing for belts as motivational tools for the students to drop the very thing that they center upon. I can see chaos, and confusion happening for those styles.
I've heard comments of "Ah... this person is about 5th kyu level in ability." which is similar to a music teacher assessing an incoming student and saying "Ah.. this person is playing at about a Grade 2 level." I believe that there is a certain inner ladder of expectation that is formed within us as to what a 5th Dan, 1st Dan, or 10th kyu should be capable of performing.
I believe that incongruety, and confusion still happens when the rank portrayed doesn't match the ability, and knowledge.
|
|
|
Post by fluffy on Apr 30, 2006 12:56:42 GMT 8
To me it is somewhat important. Tradition in my own training, a good goal setter for some of my students, I know who is my go to guy and a way we can recognize who has given back to the art. But, as my wife reminds me, I'm just one of the guys - I need to act like it.
|
|
|
Post by Colin Wee on Apr 30, 2006 21:27:37 GMT 8
To me it is somewhat important. I don't think that rank is detrimental to martial arts like what Ron has said. If I did think that, I would think that my own practice continues something that is counter-productive - which I don't believe. I am a well-balanced individual, and for the effort I put into the martial arts, I take my black belt and I am proud to tie it around my uniform every time I practice. It's not the main thing that drives me, but yes, I like where I am right now. I mean I *don't* have to wear my uniform, but I know where it is in my heart. It's not bad to be proud, just bad to be prideful. Colin
|
|
|
Post by GM-Neal on May 1, 2006 10:09:50 GMT 8
That is the key to have Pride in what you are and what you do, but not to be Prideful / boastful. Mri, for the most part that is what I am referring to, but all so if the System you are in {Like Ron}, that does not have or teach Rank from the very beginning then it is more excepted. Unlike the Rest of us that have a Ranking system, that is taught from day one, and what some work toward, it is harder to except. with rank there are some that seek the Rank with the Knowledge, as apposed to just seeking the Knowledge. There is not a thing wrong with this thinking, for some it gives more of a Goal to reach and strive for. It is Like winning the N.C.A.A. Championship Or The World Series, it is a Goal to get to, for most it will not change the way they think or act, others it will, but i have found that for the ones it does change, they were that way to begin with, the rank did not make them that way, Life Did.
|
|